tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post8997104898213432873..comments2024-03-28T15:30:09.903-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Other Old SchoolsJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52774447579012396502011-05-17T09:43:29.315-04:002011-05-17T09:43:29.315-04:00Old School, I think is also a mindset or a philoso...Old School, I think is also a mindset or a philosophy toward gaming rather than a specific edition. Older RPGs by virtual of being sandbox games can acquire the title easier than more modern games in which the focus has been more about (re)creating the video game experience around the tabletop.<br /><br />I see that younger gamers raised upon newer games come with surprise and shock, when a GM allows them to do something unscripted or tells them to disregard the dice roll and act it out. The best players combine both - and that is the essence of Old School - but even the most able of fatbeards find this an arduous task.<br /><br />So, I am wondering if the synthesis is what we will need in the years ahead. As I am now raising the next generation of gamers - sure they will be coloured by Wii's and interactive virtual environments but I am trying to instill all this is meaningless unless you can see the story in your head - first.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81933538426284468162011-04-22T18:54:24.096-04:002011-04-22T18:54:24.096-04:00I wouldn't call it a real schism (the fan base...I wouldn't call it a real schism (the fan base is too small, and we were desperate for any new material at the time) but a lot of DragonQuest players we're seriously ticked by TSR's changes to the game - and more particularly their decision to kill it and bury/not publish work in progress.<br /><br />If you want a huge schism outside of roleplaying, the StarFire SF wargame community went through a huge one a couple of years ago with the move from 3E to 4E (and especially the decision to kill the release of a major revised 3E supplement). There were extremely nasty flame wars, threats of law suits, division into camps and beleaguered neutrals, etc. Since then there has been internal work on a new "old school" edition to be marketed simultaneously with the current iteration of 4E.JBMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13915780514486101083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-88134642787369896952011-04-22T16:05:51.134-04:002011-04-22T16:05:51.134-04:00It is pretty much all of those things. I like HARP...It is pretty much all of those things. I like HARP in and of itself. I especially like the spell system, but especially dislike the combat. However, my biggest problem with HARP is that it competes with RM. I just don't get the logic of one company publishing two systems for the same genre.arcadaynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17025690624100512801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29513110135646262332011-04-21T11:13:15.395-04:002011-04-21T11:13:15.395-04:00@arcadyn -- From my reading of HARP it seemed clea...@arcadyn -- From my reading of HARP it seemed cleaner, easier, more modular, and vastly simplified. These things appealed to me. However, I can easily see that they wouldn't have appealed to a huge portion of the existing RM fan-base.Viktorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04867648528753994863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-8491199564691898422011-04-21T10:36:46.212-04:002011-04-21T10:36:46.212-04:00@Viktor Haag - HARP caused quite a bit of a stir w...@Viktor Haag - HARP caused quite a bit of a stir when it was first announced. Many (including myself) felt that the last thing ICE needed was yet another fantasy system to confuse consumers. It was basically seen as a D20'izing of RM. Some of its reviews even stated that it did D20 better than D20!arcadaynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17025690624100512801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5542046240477820232011-04-20T13:11:15.159-04:002011-04-20T13:11:15.159-04:00Shadowrun had a pretty big split between 3rd and 4...Shadowrun had a pretty big split between 3rd and 4th edition too. They changed the mechanics from the ground up when they removed variable target numbers, rewrote the Matrix replacing cyberdecks where you had to actually plug your brain into the matrix using a fiberoptic cable drilled into your skull with a wireless matrix where anyone could interface with it using a palm sized comlink and a bunch of other stuff...Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02218364111122137880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-38998885937726203472011-04-20T06:01:05.731-04:002011-04-20T06:01:05.731-04:00I can vouch for there being a MASSIVE rift between...I can vouch for there being a MASSIVE rift between players of old white wolf and new white wolf :D <br />I know alot of people who were flat out addicted to that crack, but refuse to buy anything from the new edition. I suppose its something to do with metaplot rather than rules though, after X amount of years you have quite alot invested in the setting, and when they do a complete restart it's like they pulled the rug out from under you!<br /><br />Actually thinking about it, I'm guilty of this myself, I really like Mage, but the new edition leaves me cold (thats more to do with the magic system though, Mage has the best open ended magic system I've ever seen, so seeing it replaced by a point by spell system left a bad taste in my mouth - Do like the Orpheus reboot of Wraith though because it's a continuation of the existing metaplot rather than a restart :D)dungeonmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640569291802781609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79536673584646577832011-04-20T04:31:38.864-04:002011-04-20T04:31:38.864-04:00There is indeed a split between Chivalry & Sor...There is indeed a split between Chivalry & Sorcery 2nd edition and C&S 3rd-4th edition, as you can see here:<br /><br />http://chivalrysorcery.myfastforum.org/How_much_of_Simbalist_in_3rd_edition__about194.html<br /><br />and here:<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/3tehtcaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-15510212011242015642011-04-20T01:33:01.976-04:002011-04-20T01:33:01.976-04:00There is a minor schism between those favouring Ir...There is a minor schism between those favouring <i>Ironclaw</i> and those favouring <i>Ironclaw: Squaring The Circle</i>. Although given the size of Ironclaw fandom, this is more in the manner of personal disagreements than an actual schism.Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-67086169510859805252011-04-20T01:09:13.016-04:002011-04-20T01:09:13.016-04:00I like to see how Gamma World gets mentioned again...I like to see how Gamma World gets mentioned again and again as it holds a special place in my heart. In case you are interested in (yet another ;-) old school alternative for Gamma World (besides Mutant Future - which is great), I have spent the last couple of weeks on a new project called "Gaia Gamma", an old school revisioning of Gamma World. You can find the details spread all over the accompanying blog http://www.gaiagamma.com) which chronicles the way the game is designed.<br /><br />Input and followers are more than welcome as the game design process is meant to be an open space for ideas and the game itself follows a "release early, release often" philosophy in order to document the desig steps.The Creatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906302439863860854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-11224150368902762702011-04-20T00:32:11.168-04:002011-04-20T00:32:11.168-04:00I experienced this a few years ago whe I started r...I experienced this a few years ago whe I started reading BoardGameGeek.com. In it, there is a sharp schism between Old School Gamers (which I'll call OSG) and Modern Gamers (MG). Old School gaming is associated with "Ameritrash" - lots and lots of "chrome" filled rules which add flavor but can make it unclear as to what the rule IS; usually lots of detailed pieces, esp. figurines or chits, and especially a thematic attitude toward problem solving through violence and a conservative political strain...this is very much consistent with RPG's and their "Fighting Men" and general Hack N' Slash attitude...Modern Gaming is associated with the "EuroGames" trend which kicked in during the 90's...this trend entailed simplified rules, less "chrome" leading to a more abstract flavor, and a more "politically correct" approach to themes. Modern RPGing saw the trend towards storytelling rather than straight smash & grab, and a more inviting stance towards women players in general. I'd say gaming across the board has followed this line. I think it's a mistake to adhere strictly to one school, however...BOTH schools have their serious flaws AND advantages...Dave Starkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11980148737430868954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81798380945779183452011-04-20T00:30:42.595-04:002011-04-20T00:30:42.595-04:00I think it could be argued that the launch of Hero...<i>I think it could be argued that the launch of Hero Wars (now HeroQuest) in 2000 had a similar impact on RuneQuest/Glorantha fandom, but, not being plugged into that community, I can't be certain if this assessment is correct.</i><br /><br />I'd have to say it's true. You now have the sense that <i>Heroquest</i> is the only way to play adventures in Glorantha, at least from the various mailing lists, even if you don't agree with the play philosophy involved with the new rules. Which admittedly I don't. They can actually get quite preachy about it (although in many cases it's just supporting an element of work they have laboured long and hard on), in a fanatical convert sense. Some individuals in the community actually got quite rude about it.<br /><br />I think the exact point of schism was when <i>Tales of the Reaching Moon</i> was shut down, since that fanzine had a tremendous effect on uniting a Runequest fan community during the dark ages of Avalon Hill. [Interestingly enough, you could easily argue that Avalon Hill's mishandling of <i>Runequest</i> was what gave the fan community such strength.]<br /><br />Interestingly the Mongoose <i>Runequest II</i> rules might reunite the camps to a degree. At least, it combines the simulationist (<i>Runequest</i>) approach with the new cultural definitions proposed by the narrative (<i>Heroquest</i>) camp.<br /><br />[Then again the official idea of what is Glorantha tends to get "Gregged" every few years (eg <i>Heroquest</i> Glorantha is different from <i>Heroquest 2</i> Glorantha), so everyone really runs their own game of Glorantha with common and recognisable elements.]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-81555728901267672872011-04-19T21:50:00.070-04:002011-04-19T21:50:00.070-04:00It's been mentioned at least twice, but defini...It's been mentioned at least twice, but definitely there is a schism amongst WFRP fans; particularly with the release of 3rd ed.. While 2nd ed. introduced a few mechanical changes, for the most part, the largest change was the introduction of new developments in the Old World (which I ignored). 3rd ed. is a drastic mechanical departure.Kilsernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03275640961532227294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70609689926743307192011-04-19T21:26:31.153-04:002011-04-19T21:26:31.153-04:00I'm surprised at the most obvious one. Star Wa...I'm surprised at the most obvious one. Star Wars. The WEG d6 system is radically different then the WotC d20 version. Most people that I know who play Star Wars (myself included) prefer the d6 system, mainly because there is not as much emphasis on Jedi and the mechanics that go with it.Infamoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13979774352890690528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13387025333593827352011-04-19T19:24:15.425-04:002011-04-19T19:24:15.425-04:00Around 2003, I was playing Magic: the Gathering wi...Around 2003, I was playing Magic: the Gathering with a group at a comic shop. One day I declared that I was putting the damage from one of my creatures "on the stack" (a rules change that came about in 1999 with Sixth Edition). Everyone looked at me like I was trying to pull some ridiculous rules shenanigans on them. I tried to explain it, and the guy there who others relied on for rules interpretations just said, "That's not in my Revised rulebook."<br /><br />Only time I saw that with Magic, but I suppose it's possible that the old school crowds can be found in pretty much any game that has seen changes.<br /><br />Also, I think knobgobbler is right on in comparing old skool RPGing to certain music scenes. Fight On! often gives me a feeling similar to reading ska zines back in the day (where'd they all go?).Jonathan Linnemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04711517194240426383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-49349711196002482762011-04-19T18:03:37.683-04:002011-04-19T18:03:37.683-04:00'Trail of Cthulhu' set out to 'fix'...'Trail of Cthulhu' set out to 'fix' something in CoC that wasn't broken... that cheeses off some of us CoC fans. But I still value its contribution of interesting alternate views of the Mythos... it makes for a nice CoC supplement.<br /><br />I'm with those saying that 'old school' is more about an approach to gaming... a more individualized, DIY approach that doesn't need as much 'official' sanction. A willingness to make up your own rulings for something rather than clamoring for a 'professional' to pass down the word from on high. <br />Also, for me, it's a general... distrust... of over-produced glossy hardbacks with full color paintings on every page... vs. the energy and verve that was on show in a lot of 'amateur' products. <br />It has some common blood with the punk and low-fi movements in music. Taking back something that was getting a bit too corporate... celebrating the idea that homemade is better than store bought.Timmy Crabcakeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14737954661234574830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-57162273539806355182011-04-19T17:33:01.319-04:002011-04-19T17:33:01.319-04:00Following up on what Mordecai said -- I cannot spe...Following up on what Mordecai said -- I cannot speak for anyone other than myself, but what angered me the most about the nWoD was the way it tossed aside so much rich background. Yes, the rules were probably horribly broken; but if White Wolf had kept the setting (refining and rebooting as necessary) but changed the rules as needed, I would have switched to nWoD.Erin Palettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09984632637166408245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-70833565868945085762011-04-19T17:02:55.072-04:002011-04-19T17:02:55.072-04:00You couldn't call it a schism, nor an old-scho...You couldn't call it a schism, nor an old-school/new-school divide, but <i>Trail of Cthulhu</i> is something of a reinvention of <i>Call of Cthulhu</i>. Although the mechanics of Trail's <i>Gumshoe</i> system are rather different to BRP, I'd suggest that Ken Hite and Robin Laws would say <i>Trail of Cthulhu</i> is about supporting mechanically the kinds of game people were trying to play in <i>Call of Cthulhu</i> anyway.<br><br />Also, I'm not a historical wargamer, but my impression is that there is a succession of phases that their communities go through, as their games swing between accurate simulation and "bang, you're dead" gaming. At the moment, rules that reflect wargaming as a social hobby are in the ascendant, which, in a sense, is reaching back to the hobby's roots - H G Well's <i>Little Wars</i>, for example, and you can hardly get more old-school than that. I believe that <i>Black Powder</i> encourages players not to fixate on the rules in the book, but to make gentlemanly agreements at the table on how something should play out, which reminds me of Matt Finch's "rulings, not rules". If they are "old-school", though, it is only in spirit not in presentation: the books are lavish publications, heavily featuring beautiful photography of miniatures on the table.PCBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03645647030605683608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-45356130500059789982011-04-19T15:52:51.475-04:002011-04-19T15:52:51.475-04:00I think that, to an extent, Old School is a style ...I think that, to an extent, Old School is a style of play, not necessarily something inherent in edition schisms. I have a friend who ran a 3.5 D&D game, which he did just as he had once run 1e games, and the feel and style was the same (with buy in from the players). Newer rulesets might make it easier to resist the old school ethos, but I think it is intrinsic in the style.Luke Martinezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17613401274696711406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76285579895295111302011-04-19T15:20:25.561-04:002011-04-19T15:20:25.561-04:00Shadowrun.Shadowrun.Justin Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02227895898395353754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-56339984833719981832011-04-19T15:17:36.598-04:002011-04-19T15:17:36.598-04:00RuneQuest suffered an earlier schism in 1984 with ...RuneQuest suffered an earlier schism in 1984 with RQ 3, which a) introduced Sorcery, b) decoupled RQ from Glorantha, and c) transfered publication to Avalon Hill, who seemed pretty clueless about how to develop and market an RPG. Among the RQ grognards I knew in college (a) was a big deal, since many considered it "broken". (b) and especially (c) essentially sunk the game until Mongoose picked it up again in 2006.<br /><br />Also, to clarify comments on GURPS: SJG republished updated and collected material in more expensive hardback editions. IIRC, they said retailers liked $35 hardbacks better than $20 softcovers. (Thanks, White Wolf and WotC.) The rules tweaks ticked people off, although I never understood that: 3rd edition suffered from redundant and contradictory material in scattered sourcebooks, which the Compendia only partly rectified. Making advantages and disadvantages more general and orthogonal made sense to me. For that matter, the great HP/FP swap fixed both the "body-building mage" problem and split HT for large creatures. (Background: 1-3rd edition based FP on STrength and HP on HealTh. Mages expended FP to power spells; large creatures required far more HP than their HT score, coincidentally about the same as their ST score ...)semiprometheushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15207709959053404464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12948337076226190342011-04-19T14:37:44.310-04:002011-04-19T14:37:44.310-04:00@Rob Crawford
I don't know about the state of...@Rob Crawford<br /><br />I don't know about the state of the SJG forums now (nor at the time of the launch of <i>GURPS</i> 4th edition, because I mostly avoid forums), but some of us who preferred 1st-3rd editions simply abandoned hope and concentrated on filling the gaps in our pre-4th edition collections. It wasn't so much a change in rules as a change in approach: the new emphasis on republishing old books in much more expensive editions rather than releasing new source books or reprinting out-of-print books; the new meta-setting (I'm not sure if that's the right word); even the new layouts. It's a matter of preference, but it's clearly a divide. I'm still not sure I would use the term "old school" for it, though.Gordon Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12907319916602597979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-51729466183341950592011-04-19T14:29:07.483-04:002011-04-19T14:29:07.483-04:00I don't know If I'm in the minority but I ...I don't know If I'm in the minority but I associate "Old School" with PCs starting out as normal folks (with hero potential) who get more skilled/powerful/adept through play over time.<br /><br />who doesn't have fond memories of their newly minted fighter being shove out the door by his father, equipped with nothing more than a sack, some hand me down leather armor, a vaguely martial farming implement (and maybe bag of sandwiches his mother packed) to head out into the world and seek his fortune.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08275471098088646672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-59673952480530352832011-04-19T14:11:47.522-04:002011-04-19T14:11:47.522-04:00I agree with Andy about BattleTech. I was gung ho ...I agree with Andy about <i>BattleTech</i>. I was gung ho until the Clan invasion, so I ignored all products related to it. Eventually, I grew apart from it as a result of the new official emphasis. Another uprising occurred when <i>BattleTech</i> made the move to collectible clicky miniatures (along with a change of scale and a new time period). I was at the Origins seminar where Jordan Weisman fielded questions and complaints from an audience that contained some gamers who were very fervently opposed to the new direction. So there have been at least two major schisms in <i>BattleTech</i>.Gordon Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12907319916602597979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-58527267389680580382011-04-19T14:06:13.101-04:002011-04-19T14:06:13.101-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Gordon Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12907319916602597979noreply@blogger.com