tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post943479699027640995..comments2024-03-29T00:32:33.920-04:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Retrospective: The Free City of HavenJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-28894981136520327282021-04-10T17:35:12.703-04:002021-04-10T17:35:12.703-04:00James: looks like the City of Valla was just the ...James: looks like the City of Valla was just the two maps with no booklet, as originally issued by Clegg. <br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82081848826145472021-04-06T11:52:10.219-04:002021-04-06T11:52:10.219-04:00I wasn't actually part of that RPG group, but ...I wasn't actually part of that RPG group, but I was playing a lot of Striker in the era and the GM knew it, so he approached me and a couple of other wargamer types about doing the adventure ("ticket" was the proper term, IIRC) as a mostly-wargame with his regular players on the opposing side against us leadheads. He came up with the unique personal (and secret) victory conditions for us, which was a bit of a surprise but worked out well. I think they were needed - if we hadn't been effectively competing to screw each other over we'd have just walked all over the defense (and his PCs) and it would have been a worse game for everyone.<br /><br />As it is, the roleplayers got to try their hand at some wargaming and managed to evacuate Glorinna and most of their troops, and the wargamers got a very different sort of game that led to us doing more "story driven" scenarios in the future instead of the "spend X points/credits on an army and murder each other" games we'd mostly been doing. Win-win all around. Also probably part of why I like Stargrunt and Dirtside so much even after all these years - they're both minis systems that don't really have point value mechanics and rely on deciding on what sounds like an interesting battle rather than pretending even fights are realistic. Which is not the norm in minis gaming IME, especially for folks who got into it through Games Workshop or Privateer Press.Dick McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14521293874696659063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13383988819856692382021-04-06T08:10:32.672-04:002021-04-06T08:10:32.672-04:00Allan, were you able to find a booklet that goes w...Allan, were you able to find a booklet that goes with the City of Valla map?James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-14506182483346350842021-04-02T21:22:20.606-04:002021-04-02T21:22:20.606-04:00Thanks Allan!Thanks Allan!James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-80395014022350053822021-04-02T19:18:43.220-04:002021-04-02T19:18:43.220-04:00Indeed, that sounds like a direct copy from JTAS $...Indeed, that sounds like a direct copy from JTAS $10.<br /><br />The way that Amber Zone played out for you is one that I never would have anticipated. Sounds like you had a great group! I'd like to hear more about them.Figulushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13549064050271896212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-481269315859807802021-04-02T12:14:47.010-04:002021-04-02T12:14:47.010-04:00Is that this Glorinna?
https://www.angelfire.com/...Is that this Glorinna?<br /><br />https://www.angelfire.com/trek/jabez/traveler/adventures/coupdetat.html<br /><br />Actually played that mission as a Striker minis game, with myself and couple of other guys taking the roles of the commanders of the attacking forces. The actual PCs in the RPG campaign were on the other side and handed us our heads, in large part because each attacking commander had different victory conditions. The A company commander turned out to have "make sure B company (my own troops) gets mauled in the fighting without openly attacking them yourself, and win a major victory if the company commander (that being me) is killed or in contact with your own troops at the end of the battle" as objectives. Unsurprisingly, he failed to provide support at a key moment, then got himself shot to pieces by the defenders after my troops routed. He did have the satisfaction of having "me" arrested and executed as a scapegoat after I took shelter with his command section, so a big win for him.<br /><br />I was supposed to prove my troops were better than the traitor Companions by breaching the defenses before them, and make sure the Princess wasn't taken into custody by anyone else. Didn't work out well for me. :)Dick McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14521293874696659063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22937590979745627562021-04-02T11:37:11.967-04:002021-04-02T11:37:11.967-04:00James, thank you for this very thought provoking r...<br />James, thank you for this very thought provoking review of a product from 1981, a product which I have no memory of. Your paean to the Personalities of Haven, however, reminds me of another 1981 product, the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society #11, which introduced a new regular feature, the Casual Encounter. The first casual encounter was about an NPC named Glorinna, who had appeared in an Amber Zone in JTAS #10.<br /><br />Are you familiar with JTAS and Casual Encounters? Since I do not know Haven, I cannot compare and contrast Personalities with Casual Encounters, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter. I find it an interesting coincidence that they both came out in 1981.<br />Figulushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13549064050271896212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-82198772383616492932021-04-02T10:48:52.954-04:002021-04-02T10:48:52.954-04:00I'll pull them out over the weekend to check, ...I'll pull them out over the weekend to check, James. <br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65775999998177331742021-04-02T09:55:27.537-04:002021-04-02T09:55:27.537-04:00Correct.Correct.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-60990267148331884622021-04-02T06:44:24.874-04:002021-04-02T06:44:24.874-04:00I would guess that Zwardzand is a reference to Por...I would guess that Zwardzand is a reference to Port Blacksand from <i>Fighting Fantasy</i>.thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84339164226357097362021-03-31T16:41:46.092-04:002021-03-31T16:41:46.092-04:00Allan,
I was unaware of any booklet to accompany ...Allan,<br /><br />I was unaware of any booklet to accompany City of Valla; I know there are booklets for the Tombs of Valla and the Bandits adventures. I'd love to be wrong...James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86247349646429812442021-03-31T15:44:59.028-04:002021-03-31T15:44:59.028-04:00The City of Valla and Tombs of Valla were republis...The City of Valla and Tombs of Valla were republished in the padt 5-7 years via the North Texas RPG Con team. They had found some old stock, and then worked with Clegg to reprint the booklets and maps.<br /><br />Allan.grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22275862556615972692021-03-31T15:41:15.173-04:002021-03-31T15:41:15.173-04:00Not the city as a whole, at least AFAIK. But we&#...Not the city as a whole, at least AFAIK. But we've seen lots of snippets of the place, ranging from everyday clan life to politicking at the highest tiers to religious rituals, more so than any other city on Tekumel. It feels like I ought to know the place, the same way watching a bunch of movies or reading novels set in NYC makes me feel like I ought to know the Big Apple better than my limited real world experience would allow.<br /><br />Can you have a parasocial relationship with a city? :) Dick McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14521293874696659063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-4647581570513291982021-03-31T15:00:16.209-04:002021-03-31T15:00:16.209-04:00I love the Jakalla map, but has the city and its d...I love the Jakalla map, but has the city and its denizens ever been written up in detail? If so, somehow I have managed to miss it...James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-65645469307008428032021-03-31T14:43:15.719-04:002021-03-31T14:43:15.719-04:00I suppose Jakalla also deserves some consideration...I suppose Jakalla also deserves some consideration as an all-time great fantasy city, but I guess that kind of goes without saying. Probably not high on anyone's list unless they're a Tekumel fan, though. It's atypical even by the standards of places like Immyr or Sigil.<br /><br />Oh yeah, Sigil's another one. But that one makes me think "otherworldly Victorian rookery" more than "fantasy metropolis" as such.Dick McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14521293874696659063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7170381135868885502021-03-31T14:37:09.801-04:002021-03-31T14:37:09.801-04:00Influential as Lankhmar is, my "default image...Influential as Lankhmar is, my "default image" of a mid-to-low fantasy city is Sanctuary from Thieves' World. Really enjoyed that series for the first six or eight books, although it did go downhill later and I admit I've never read the attempt at a re-launch with a time skip.<br /><br />If there was more of it, I suspect the city of Liavek (another city-centric shared-world anthology series with an immensely cool magic system) would have similar impact - but it was also more fantastical and only got three books and some shorts AFAIK. They were *very* good books though, arguably better on average than TW at its best.<br /><br />Lawrence Watt-Evans' three Ethshars also stand out for me some, particularly Ethshar of the Sands. Always been weirded out by how many of those books he wrote and how little they're remembered these days. The poor guy really seems to struggle to make the kind of living off his writing that he probably deserves.<br /><br />For gaming cities, Pavis stands out the most to me. It's realistically small and feels like the kind of place an adventuring party could really get to know every inch of over time, while the Big Rubble and surrounding plains and river valley offer plenty of scope for adventures when you tire of the city - or need to go on the lam till the heat cools down. <br /><br />TSR's Rock of Bral from the Spelljammer range also appeals a lot. Again, it's relatively small, and it is a very exotic location (being a fantasy spaceport and all) but like any port it's easy to adventure both in and out of.Dick McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14521293874696659063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79399766841613194602021-03-31T14:00:58.635-04:002021-03-31T14:00:58.635-04:00I, too, adore urban adventures; my gateway was of ...I, too, adore urban adventures; my gateway was of course the City State of the Invincible Overlord, as well as Sanctuary, the Thieves World setting published by Chaosium. Since then I've picked up just about every "old-school" style fantasy city I can find (there were a lot of d20 cities I passed on, though).<br /><br />As you mention, Haven has a lot to recommend it; I have everything they ever published for Haven, including the modules. The problem is that the city is incomplete.<br /><br />The first set (which you review) and the boxed edition present only about a third of the city. Secrets of the Labyrinth provide another third. The third installment, "Intrigue on the North Bank," was never published. And even then, there's a huge amount of space in the city as presented in the two published versions, whole wide swaths of blocks, that are simply empty. Even the buildings aren't drawn in, just the block space and streets. The original Lankhmar by TSR suffered from this issue; the city geomorphs to "personalize" the city were extremely unsatisfactory.<br /><br />But as you mention, the NPCs and situations presented in Haven and Labyrinth are excellent, far more detailed than anything presented in Lankhmar, Sanctuary, Greyhawk, CSIO, or most other fantasy cities. I regularly "borrow" from Haven and Labyrinth for other cities.<br /><br />One series of cities I adore are the cities from Midkemia Press: Carse, Tulan, and Jonril. They have just the right mix of space and detail to hit the sweet spot. Their "Cities" book is a "must have" for city adventures along the lines of the Ready Ref Sheets. I have an interview with Stephen Abrams from Midkemia Press that has been sitting on a back burner for some time now; maybe I need to heat that up and finish it...<br /><br />One city that looks absolutely fabulous but is now, alas, lost to the ages, as far as I am aware, is John Scott Clegg's "City of Valla." As far as I have been able to determine, only the map, which is gorgeous and has so much potential, has ever been published (back in 1981). It was clearly inspired by the City State of the Invincible Overlord, as well as other classic material of the day. But no guidebook was ever published, as as far as I can tell, John Scott Clegg passed away some time ago...James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-79828661408982624722021-03-31T12:58:39.971-04:002021-03-31T12:58:39.971-04:00I would look at the present iteration of Harn Citi...I would look at the present iteration of Harn Cities, Aleath, Cherafir, Cornanan, Golotha, Shiran, Tashal, and Thay. <br /><br />The original releases were pretty terse but the newest versions have been expanded. And the expansion is focused on the NPCs inhabitants. And it still tersely written with the largest, Cornanan, weighing in at 44 pages.<br /><br />And the setting, Harn, fits well with vaguely medieval fantasy that underlies Haven and so much of Sword & Sorcery fantasy. Especially the cities. <br /><br />For a sense of what these are about goto Lythia.com and do a search for any of the city names.<br /><br />For a one stop look download the latest Harn Pottage <br />https://www.lythia.com/adventures/harn-pottage-iv/<br /><br />It representative of the work done with the Harn City.<br /><br />Also Columbia Game will be having a kickstarter for a hardback version of one of their kingdom. It will include the city of Tashal.Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.com