With the notable exception of RuneQuest, most fantasy roleplaying games have employed US customary or Imperial units (or some mix of the two). On the other hand, science fiction roleplaying games are (almost) unanimous in using the metric system. Now, sha-Arthan is a "secret sci-fi" setting, which is to say, it's presented as if it were a traditional fantasy setting, albeit a somewhat exotic one, but its foundations are science fictional. Thus, there are scientific – or at least pseudo-scientific – explanations for sorcery, monsters, magic items, and so on. Since it occupies a middle ground between fantasy and science fiction, what sort of units of measurement should it use?
This has been a topic of conversation among my patrons, where a vocal (and persuasive) minority suggested that I ought to consider creating unique units of measurement for the setting, both for flavor purposes and to aid in the running of the game. I must admit that I was immediately torn by this suggestion. It's certainly true that unique terms can help to better immerse one in an imaginary setting. However, they can also be alienating, especially when there are already lots of unique terms and names in use.
One possible way to bridge the gap between these two perspectives is to come up with terms that are both easily convertible to real world units and useful in play. For example, the six-mile hex is very popular among old school gamers and, while there are indeed some practical reasons for its popularity, it's still a somewhat arbitrary choice. But what if it weren't? What if, in sha-Arthan, there was a unit of measurement that corresponded to six miles (let's call it a meshal for argument's sake)? If that were the case, I could simply say that each hex on a map corresponds to one meshal and then explain how many meshals per day a group of adventurers can typically travel. In a similar fashion, if I adopt five-foot squares on interior maps, perhaps each of those squares is another type of unit (a dashur or "pace"). As I ponder this further, I realize that I could come up with other units to simplify the handling of encumbrance or whatever other "fiddly" details of fantasy gaming that are often cast aside because of the tedium of keeping track of them.
Of course, I might well be mistaken in this and that any theoretical gains made through the use of game-derived units is offset by the additional step of remembering just what a meshal or dashur represents. It's also possible that it's just this kind of world building that gets in the way of accessibility and one of my goals with sha-Arthan is to present an exotic science fantasy setting that isn't going to frighten people away by luxuriating in its own oddities.
I shall keep pondering.
while metric is nice, no one uses it. Everyone uses either imperial, or a bastardized version their of. (proof? no one ever uses Megameters, or giga grams, or whatever. they all use a metric version of human sized measurements like KG or KM, even when talking about numbers that should be moved up to a larger pre-fix. ask any canadian, even those under say, age 30, how much they weigh, and it is in pounds. height in inches. if you ask for metric, they have to stop and convert. metric does not work for human experience. just better math)
ReplyDelete@Rick I find the opposite in Australia & Europe (France) & Asia (Singapore) all of which I've lived in, no one knows what a pound is and human weights are easily equatable "to the human experience" in kg as much as any other... 80kg avg guy. 100kg big guy. 50kg small woman etc.
DeleteMy interactions with people <30 (as a teacher) are that they confidently give & recognise heights in cm/metres. Again... 2m huge man, 1.8m avg man, 1.5m small woman etc. A metre is basically the same distance as a yard so the idea that one of those relates to human experience and one doesn't is odd to me. The ruler every kid in school uses, 12 inches or 30cm on exactly the same size stick...
It really just depends what you are steeped in. Not sure about Canada but perhaps cultural influence from the big neighbour using Imperial next door also shapes their use.
While Canadians definitely do use imperial pretty indiscriminately for personal measurements (i.e. anything measured in feet and pounds), I think that's pretty explicable. The foot and the inch are both more convenient than the cm or the dm, and since residential construction happens in Imperial no one's likely to forget the foot and the inch any time soon.
DeleteThat said, when it comes to distances LONGER than that, yards and miles are annoying, while metres and km are much easier to keep track of and work with. I know inches and feet and yards. Ask me how long anything longer than about 30 feet is and you'll get an answer in metres.
Pounds is just weight of tradition (and American influence). Kg could replace it easily enough, it just doesn't (and notably all the food weights are in metric and everyone manages fine).
The metric system as been used in RPG's as far back the late 70's with Runequest plus it fits well in a sci-fi setting and only adds to the mystique of the world of Sha-Arthan.
Deleteyou guys missed the point. GRAMS is the measurement. not kilos. you are just bastardizing pounds...
DeleteOver the holidays I bought a bunch of Lyle’s Golden Syrup. Nowhere on the packaging are there any imperial units, but it comes in 454 gram tins. What an odd number :)
DeletePounds is measurement of Force, you wanted to say Slugs of course ;-)
DeleteTraveller (1977) beat RQ with metric, though 1977 Traveller does use miles for world sizes and space combat, but equipment weight and size is metric and personal combat range bands are in meters. Chivalry and Sorcery (also 1977) uses a mix of metric and imperial. Another 1977 game with metric is Space Quest. I don't think any of the earlier games are metric. D&D, EPT, Bunnies & Burrows, and Metamorphosis Alpha all are imperial. I didn't check Boot Hill or Tunnels & Trolls but I'd be confident they are imperial. For 1976 or earlier that leaves En Garde, Knights of the Round Table.
DeleteAnd I just checked Starfaring (1976) for the probable win... While it gives a light year and parsec in miles, psionics at least are kilograms and meters...
@rick,I'm born in Europe where I still leave. I respectfully regret, but kilogramm is the basic unit of the metric system, and equals 1 litter of Water. You can double check the "international system of units" to see that grams is not the basic unit. It's not a bastardized version of pounds, 1 pound = +- 2.2 kilograms. We use a lot of variation, and we use meters or centimeters for size (I'm small with 1.68m,but I would write 168cm on a form, which is not a big deal). We use grams measurement when cooking (meaning every day when using a recipe), and various measurement such as decilitre, centilitre, etc. I only heard about Pounds, yards, fret, inches, miles in Us and Canada and I can't understand them without a translator, because I can't remember the correspondance to the metric system (2.2 kg ?)
DeleteEach measurement of the metric system is a base 10 multiplier. So a kilogram is 1000 grams. Nothing to so with imperial.
I wish rpg games use metric system, as French translations sometimes translate litteraly but in metric. The french version of lamentations of the flame princess ends up with weird measurement because of thid translation (36m/round, 38km/day,wich makes no sense to grasp it in mind).
This said,i really like the Idea of an ingame measurement that has a practical use.
I'm 98.2 kilos and 1.85 m tall. You need to redefine "no-one"
ReplyDeleteNo kidding. Imperial is only officially used in three countries on the whole planet, and outside of a few former British colonies and some nostalgic folks in the Commonwealth it's almost forgotten even at the unofficial level. The US should have switched over to metric decades ago, but it's hardly the only thing we're backward about.
DeleteImperial is officially used in zero countries in the world. American Customary units are used in two, and Myanmar has their own system.
DeleteWell said, Rick. Metric is a great resource for science, but very mediocre for the everyday needs of the average person.
DeleteYou keep saying this but ignoring both the people writing in saying they find them suitable to their everyday needs and the fact that the vast majority of the world use them... because they are just as useful and useable in everyday life as they are better for math & scienceing.
DeleteOn a side note, I think people would remember that customary (older) != imperial (newer) if we were just a little less proud in the US and called them English measurements. (Which is what they are; that's the "custom" to which we refer.)
DeleteAlternatively, go pub crawling through a mix of Irish and standard American bars. You will quickly come to realize how much smaller English pints are than Imperial pints.
A lot of games invented new measurements that were easier for various game purposes: the "gold piece weight" or "coin weight" for D&D and "dragons" for C&S come immediately to mind.
ReplyDeleteI like variations on the Stone Weight (14 lbs, though some games these days round it to 10 lbs for convenience), the Pace (30" in Swordbearer, though of course historically the doubled pace of around 5 feet is more commonly used; a lot of games have settled on 5 feet/1.5 meters per combat space), the League (around 3 miles, plus or minus, or about how far a human can walk in an hour on reasonable roads; a hex of two leagues is eminently reasonable), and such.
By the way, RuneQuest (or perhaps BRP, see below) included a hidden use of the traditional "stone" weight measurement used for measuring body weight. In some places in RQ3*, a point of SIZ is implied to be equal to 6.35kg, at least at the lower values of SIZ**, which at first glance seems an odd value. Multiply 6.35 by 2.20462 (kg to pounds conversion), and the result is almost exactly 14 pounds.
Delete*Or at least I remember it in RQ3, though I can't find that specific value there at the moment. The charts do support that as being the rough value of a SIZ point at the lower values of SIZ—for example, SIZ 10 is given as 59-64kg—though it rises quickly by SIZ 20 or more. It's also supported by Ringworld using the same chart RQ3 uses for SIZ for MAS (that game's rename of SIZ).
**RQ3 uses a sliding scale as SIZ gets larger, though I haven't bothered trying to figure out the formula if any. RQ2 was never so exacting, and anyway this value only seems to apply to games that use the 2D6+6 value for human (or human male) SIZ rather than the 3D6 one.
If the culture of sha-Arthan is descended from Terran colonists, then Metric makes some sense, as the "measurements handed down by the gods from time immemorial." If not, the use of Metric makes no sense, wait is a scientific system derived from Earth based measurements.
ReplyDeleteAt least some variant of current or ancient Imperial systems might be more organic (if the humans are human sized and beasts of burden have the same general movement speeds and stamina of real world beasts).
But I like the idea of homegrown measurements that fit usual in game measurements. For example, in my BX derived settings, around of 10 seconds is based on an elven measurement of time equivalent to the human second (from elven perspective), Asus the 10-minute turn, which is the elven minute (consisting of 60 10-second rounds). The "coin" is, similarly, a measure of value and weight, in that there might be several actual coins per "coin" weight (it is used to measure the value/weight of minor gems, hacksilver, petty and costume jewelry, etc. as well as real, minted coins).
As sha-Arthan is a unique and esoteric system, it deserves a similarly unique and esoteric measurement system (that accentuates and enables gameplay rather than slows it).
I've never played Sci-fi RPG's, but I just thought I'd second @faoladh's recommendation of "stones" for weight measurements in AD&D settings. Not from a practicality standpoint, but more in the interest of providing some medieval color.
ReplyDeleteSimilarly, for distances, you can use things like miles, chains, rods, and links.
Within this system, 1 mile = 800 links = 320 rods = 80 chains; and 1 chain = 4 rods = 10 links.
Converted to metric measurements:
1 mile = 1,600 meters (5,280 feet)
1 chain = 20 meters (66 feet)
1 rod = 5 meters (16.5 feet)
1 link = 2 meters (6.6 feet)
Note: these measurements are rounded off to simplify things.
In a past life I had to read old land surveys and I always enjoyed doing these conversions. Just thought I'd share in case anyone might find it interesting or potentially useful for a campaign.
I like the introduction to "Nightfall" by Asimov (or is it in the longer version with Siverberg?)...
ReplyDelete"Kalgash is an alien world and it is not our intention to have you think that it is identical to Earth, even though we depict its people as speaking a language that you can understand, and using terms that are familiar to you. Those words should be understood as mere equivalents of alien terms-that is, a conventional set of equivalents of the same sort that a writer of novels uses when he has foreign characters speaking with each other in their own language but nevertheless transcribes their words in the language of the reader.
[... Lots of more explaining...]
If you prefer, you can imagine that the text reads "vorks" wherever it says "miles," "gliizbiiz" wherever it says "hours," and "sleshtraps" where it says "eyes." Or you can make up your own terms. Vorks or miles, it will make no difference when the Stars come out."
Caves of Qud is a science-fantasy Rogue-like videogame that uses "in-world" measurements. The distance equating to one square on the World Map is referred to as a "parasang" by characters within the game-world. It doesn't take long to get used to and it reinforces the idea that this place exists outwith ours. I like it, but as ever, YMMV.
ReplyDeleteA Parasang is a historical unit of measurement, roughly equivalent to the League. If you read Xenophon, it shows up there as distances.
DeleteThanks for sharing that titbit Michael. Every day is a school day!
DeleteI think it's better to reason at the tech level. Primitive or early cultures are going to measure based on more personal measures (length of a stride, amount of water in a jug, doubling and halving measures as needed), where high tech cultures are going to have more standardized and impartial measurements (meters, liters, structured around base 10). Figure out where the player's culture sits, and measure accordingly.
ReplyDeleteI have to say I'm not a fan of the unique measurements idea...I find it hard enough with settings that have unique calendars and days of the week when a player asks 'what day it is?'. Whether to go metric or imperial is a tough one...but I guess for ease of use, you go with whatever the majority of your readers/players use.
ReplyDeleteThe Fantasy Trip used metric in the original. The recent Legacy Edition switched to U.S. Customary, a change of which I am not fond.
ReplyDelete"New" units of measure used specific for game purposes are good. IRL each unit of measure in customary systems were made for an specific case and their equivalences aren't set in stone. The exact foot, bushel, pounds, etc. changed all the time. The main point of customary units is to use a measure that fits your purpose. For example, if you say you walked 30 feet and doesn't matter that much whose feet you use to measure, ie the error from measuring with my feet or your feet is within tolerance, then the feet is a good unit. That is why in my D&D games I use the "Sword" unit of weight (a knightly sword weights around 1.2kg or 2.5 lbs). For smaller weights I use the (silver) coin of 1.2g more or less (irl coins were 1/240 of a pound). So 1k coins equals 1 sword. Both items D&D adventures should be very familiar with.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of setting specific measurement units.
ReplyDeleteWhile I don't particularly care one way or the other, I typically use feet, yards, miles and pounds/coins in fantasy or the like.
Most people I know prefer the metric system, though, and to my utter surprise the subject can turn in a heated argument in a matter of seconds.
I think fictional units of measurement that correspond to actual units used in a game are a great idea. I also like to use obsolete units for fantasy settings for their neutrality (cubits are a favorite). In any case, I think conversions ought to be available in metric *and* U.S. customary/Imperial measurements, either as footnotes, parenthetical notes, or charts in the appendix. You can have both immersion and accessibility.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of using fictional units for game constructs is a clever one, but I suspect it may still be alienating or annoying to many users, especially if the names are presented in a made-up language. Tolkien is a good example: he wisely refrained from using elvish through most of LOTR... Even a standard unit used in non-standard ways can be annoying: In Piper's SPACE VIKING I was always mentally trying to convert "700 hours in hyperspace" or whatever into days or weeks, despite there being justified reasons for not using the terrestrial "day" to measure ship time.
ReplyDeleteIf you do it for maybe one or two things, it might be flavorful, especially if you also present an English-language translation e.g., if a dashar is also a pace, then mostly call it a pace (or maybe a "stride" if at 5' it about the length of a "Roman pace" rather than the modern one.) But I suggest trying to give English translations for everything (including monsters, e.g., if a Xaadlfrod'lavarke means Indigo-Scaled Skinner in the ancient tongue, put that in parenthesis....
@David Pulver: On the other hand, E.R. Burroughs managed 10 and a half novels (the other half novel was actually written by his son, John Coleman Burroughs) using entirely fictional measurements, trusting readers to remember the few times he explained them in more detail, and that series is still one of the most beloved SF/F series of all time. I think that it's possibly a hurdle for an audience, but not an insurmountable one.
DeleteSpeaking of history of metric vs. non-metric...
ReplyDeleteThe Fantasy Trip (1978-80) was another early game to use metric, but SJ converted all the measurements to feet, yards, pounds, and miles in the reboot Legacy version.
Traveller's first edition used mostly metric numbers, but used of thousands of miles for both world size and spaceship movement. Later editions switched those to km. Gamma World, on the other hand, stuck with metric with the exception of one late D&D-compatible edition.
T&T used feet (and "weight units"). The first edition of EPT used feet and weight in lbs. but dual-statted with weight in kaitars (gold pieces); some later editions were metric.
Swordbearer used paces, leagues (but tracked weight in semi-abstract Items)
Hero system famously used metric even for fantasy
Das Schwarze Auge uses the metric system, but they've renamed the units in a commonsense way that fits the fantasy setting. A metre is a Schritt (pace), a kilometre is a Meile (league), a kilogram is a Stein (stone), etc.
ReplyDelete