I was reminded of my loathing for this aspect of gaming last weekend during the latest session of the otherwise thoroughly enjoyable Traveller campaign in which I am playing. Currently, there's a slight lull in the action, as the characters prepare to leave the planet on which they've been adventuring and head off to another one. Since the planet in question is both highly populated and technologically advanced, thoughts naturally turned toward the acquisition of additional gear. This led to the majority of the evening spent with players' noses in their copies of the Central Supply Catalogue, scouring it for every last bit of equipment that might give their characters an edge in future.
I, on the other hand, spent most of the evening reading a book at my desk, waiting for the pain to end. Occasionally, a fellow player would suggest to me a piece of equipment that he thought my character ought to buy and I'd briefly look up from my book to investigate the matter in my own copy of the CSC before deciding that I lacked sufficient interest in the fine gradations of high-tech weaponry to care. Further, there's the fact that the Mongoose Traveller rules, while more than adequate to the task, have added a little more complexity to equipment statistics than I like.
For example, a friend suggested that my character, a retired Army officer skilled in the use of heavy weapons, get a plasma gun, which first becomes available at the tech level of the planet on which we currently found ourselves. However, a plasma gun has the "very bulky" trait, which means my character must wear battle dress to use it effectively. Alas, my character lacks training in battle dress. "No problem," says, another friend, "You can add gyroscopic stabilization to the gun to reduce it to merely 'bulky,' which negates the need for battle dress in exchange for a penalty to the attack roll." I counter that penalty would negate my skill levels in heavy weapons." "True," is the reply, "but the increase in damage compared to your current weapon more than makes up for it." And so it goes throughout the night.
I don't wish to appear petulant, though I suppose that's as good a description as any of my emotional state that evening. The simple truth is that I'm rarely interested in the fine print of game statistics and games that include extensive lists of equipment necessarily add to rules complexity in order to differentiate all the new gear they introduce. That's fine for those who enjoy that sort of thing, but I've never really been one of them. It's rare, in my experience, that these subtle distinctions between types of, say, laser rifles or swords make enough difference in play to justify the extra time spent poring over books to find them.
Perhaps there's something wrong with me, since a large number of gamers, particularly those who play SFRPGs, love their equipment listings – and indeed entire books of new equipment. I wonder if my having been introduced to the hobby through Holmes Basic, where most weapons do 1d6 damage regardless of size or cost, has warped my mind so that I don't see much value in devoting lots of time to equipment acquisition. Am I alone in feeling this way?
Even going back to playing AD&D, equipment selection was always my least favorite part of the process. d6 Star Wars--give me a weapon, armor if it's in character, a few useful gadgets, and a couple items for flavor--pretty much hits my sweet spot.
ReplyDeleteNot at all, that's why over time I've come to appreciate rulesets with abstract equipment rules and low crunch.
ReplyDeleteGames like FU, where special gear is basically a Tag you can invoke for a situational bonus and the rest just grants fiction positioning to carry out some specific actions.
Even better, for me, are games with "gear points".
The rules establish how many Gear points a character can have (and thus his level of encumbrance) and these are spent to provvide gear on the spot.
While I can appreciate that in spirit, too abstract for me.
DeleteI always played a Monk; it alleviated the need for any equipment. I let the rest of group quibble over the spoils and on the rare occasion an item came up that was useable I always got it.
ReplyDeleteGood call.
DeleteI've also gone this route before, and it is quite nice!
DeleteWe occasionally use something a bit quicker than the standard table-time chewing Initial Shopping Trip. It's still more "choice" based than the "Ye Olde Fast Pack" method, which I find important, and it's easy to telegraph things about a Setting by changing up some of the choices: Quick Equipment & Encumbrance
ReplyDeleteTroll Lord Games is doing a Kickstarter for Castles & Crusades called the Adventurers' Armory. They're going to put in a whole bunch of weapons, including going over all the different types of polearms. (Ooooh! Old School.) Surely this might rekindle your love adventurer shopping.
ReplyDeleteI do love me some polearms ...
DeleteOne of my favorite features of D&D 3.x is the equipment packages. Sure, fiddle with the weapon, but just grab one, roll for the extra cash, and you're done. Way less time for the same result.
ReplyDeleteOn the face of it, watching your players acquire (or try to acquire) gear can be boring for the GM.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, you can talk to your players and share your perspective and maybe set a time limit. If they are a reasonable lot they will surely agree.
But if you engage with your players and actually start throwing out suggestions for them you can learn a lot about the characters and how they perceive them, and what their plans are for them. The PC who wanted the weapon but didn't have the suit required to mount it properly, or the training? Time for a side quest!
In addition, shopping montages can be delightful opportunities for creating NPCs that the players remember or come back to later in the campaign. "I love this guy that gave me a deal on a dagger, but remember that other guy who wouldn't sell to Adam the aarakokra since he thought Adam was a kenku? And they both got so mad trying to prove their point until we all got kicked out of the store?!? Larry never did get that cloak he had his eye on. " 😂
Finally, set an in game time limit on the shopping - you have 1 hour until the port closes and the docking clamps automatically engage, and you don't want to pay the exorbitant port fees for another night. Tick, tick, tick. Plus, that dock was reserved by the big trading conglomerate for use first thing the next day, and they'll be steamed if they find your piddly little light freighter still sitting there while their xianfruit rots in their holds! Time is money! 😀
Thanks again for all the thoughtful posts. I rarely have time to respond but tonight the stars aligned.
The equipment list is one of the things that's starting to turn me off from SF RPGs. Maybe the way to play is to play a pulp SF system where one might not expect a huge equipment list (and won't be looking for cell phones and hand computers and all sorts of other gadgetry implied by our current world).
ReplyDeleteWith my using RuneQuest 1st edition, the equipment list is pretty small, and few people have bought much beyond the starting equipment. A few have upgraded armor. Shopping in RQ amounts to choosing what spells to learn or skills to train.
I run Cold Iron with a pretty tight equipment list. But you can (and do) purchase magic items. That amounts to a pretty big equipment list, though there's a number of favorites. I haven't yet had a PC group get back to town with a huge treasure haul (they did convert some goblin weapons and armor into some magic items).
Personally, I'd rather spend a chunk of game time pouring over a "central supply catalog" full of character backgrounds, foibles, idiosyncrasies, obsessions, and hang-ups in order to juice the PCs' character moments later in the campaign.
ReplyDeleteAnybody else?
Hard pass. I don't need a book for that kind of thing. Far better off establishing those sort of details in the company of your fellow players, bouncing ideas for why your PCs are together off one another rather than picking someone else's ideas from a chart. And some of that should emerge during play anyway. Who wants to know everything about their character before the game even begins, much less everyone else's character?
DeleteThe "exploration pillar" ought to include learning about each other's PCs, not just mapping dungeons.
Total agreement uh, Dicks McGee. The less time spent imagining your character on a sheet the better. This is shared storytelling for a reason and it's far more rewarding to have something that actually happened at the table pay off than remembering you wrote down something at the beginning of the campaign and having an NPC reference it.
DeleteYou are not alone, James. For me, Holmes's equipment list is pretty close to perfect. (Gary's article on pole arms, though, is weird enough to be the exception to my dislike of endless equipment lists.)
ReplyDeleteI do remember being introduced to BX D&D in the 4th(?) grade or so. We were all fascinated by the equipment lists. Why would you need 50' of rope? A 10' pole? Spikes, holy water, and whatever "iron" rations were? Once an older and more experienced DM came on board we quickly realized that picking out the right equipment could be the difference between life and death in the dungeons.
ReplyDeleteLuckily, we also stumbled on a little bit of game balance finesse that flies under most reviewers' radar. Namely, that all characters started with the same random rolls for money, but Fighters, Dwarves, Clerics and Elves had to spend a certain amount on weapons and armor. Magic users and Thieves, on the other hand, had a much smaller initial outlay, meaning they had more free cash to pick up all the oddments so necessary for a successful delve.
Oddly, my fascination with the BX equipment list never translated to any of the other games I played regularly. I do sometimes feel that D&D/AD&D characters are more strongly defined by their equipment, especially their magical equipment, than other games. ("Tarog is a 9th level fighter with +2 plate and gauntlets of ogre strength.")
Was going to say something along this line: early on equipment lists were a source of fascination and, more importantly, POTENTIAL. Oh sure, you can only afford an old mule now, but start saving up for that warhorse! What's the difference between a pole arm and halberd again? It was the Sears Wish Book of adventuring!
DeleteI still have a powerful nostalgia for that single page of equipment listed in the original D&D Little Brown Book and the promise they held.
You are not wrong James, quite the contrary. In my campaigns, shopping takes place between sessions and is a solo activity for each player. In return, I create a market list that includes minor, quirky magic items and potions. So far it has worked well.
ReplyDeleteIn my experience, it's exactly your plasma gun experience that leads to endless, circular discussion on what to buy. Every group has at least one player who wants to pool resources to make the "best" purchase, even if no one can agree what best is.
Yeah, unless there's a very good reason for it most serious shopping is better done between sessions via email or however the group coordinates things when not at the table. "Good reasons" include meeting NPCs who may become important as more than just vending machines (although I once had an actual vending machine in Paranoia who became a major NPC) or making major purchases that will affect the whole party - buying or upgrading a starship in scifi games, investing in a stronghold or establishing a guild in fantasy, or buying out a rival business (legal or not) in a noir/moderns/cyberpunk game.
DeleteMy answer to "buy a plasma gun and use a gyromount" would have been an in-character "Have you seen what happens when one of those things malfunctions? You're lucky to live through a misfire even in battle dress, and you're roasted pork without it. You want one so badly, let's see you use it. I'm not that suicidal. Don't even want you standing near me if you do start using one, and it sure as hell isn't getting powered up on board any ship I'm on."
Delete"Realistic" scifi weapons are usually so deadly that one zap gun being a little better than another isn't worth fussing about anyway. Even "just" modern-day slugthrowers are plenty deadly enough to kill a man whithout military-grade defenses, and if your enemy has that kind of armor/force field/whatever and your PCs don't you dead if you start a fight anyway.
I feel the same way....and the same goes for 'Ye Olde Magick Shoppe', too. Even looting bodies. Tedious.
ReplyDeleteJust wondering: do you feel the same way about picking spells (for example in D&D) from an immense spell list ? I like that aspect a lot, but must admit I do the spell picking mostly by myself in between the formal sessions, so the actual game does not get bogged down with me comparing 'x' different spells with one another.
ReplyDeleteAs a Murderhobo I would never waste time shopping when I could just beat up the shop keeper and take what I need.
ReplyDeleteYou should read our literature we have solutions to all kinds of problems.
Wait...you guys spent a game session buying equipment from the rule books? I must be reading this incorrectly. Truly I'm misunderstanding something.
ReplyDeleteA session of game time was spent reading and picking equipment from the Central Supply Catalog? Why would you do that? By you I mean anyone.
I was going to say how much I enjoy a shopping spree session but that's not what I had in mind at all. As both a player and GM I get a kick out of going into shops, getting to know the quirky owners and/or employees, getting a discount in exchange for a favor or some information, maybe turning the shopkeep into an ongoing contact - role playing opportunities galore!
Going through the books to actually purchase equipment is done between sessions. That's just math. Don't waste game time on that.
*In the Realm of the Nibelungs*, my setting for S&WCL, makes choosing equipment both fast and interesting: In the mythical underworld (credit to Philotomy), various magical laws apply. One forces PCs to *limit themselves to three items each*! These are then subtly enchanted, so a waterskin can be passed around forever (but beware of trying to fill a basin with it -- it runs out normally and loses its enchantment when 'tested').
ReplyDeleteShould we really bring a rope or can the thief handle climbing? A backup weapon or a crowbar? Those are tough decisions, but do not include calculating costs or encumbrance.
Indeed if you are going for a game with precise rules for gear, I concur that the best solution is to have shopping happen between sessions, if possible.
ReplyDeleteWow! You certainly hit a nerve there! I have a lot of thoughts on this so believe me I’m trying to keep this brief.
ReplyDeleteOf course you hate it - YOUR GM IS DOING IT WRONG!
So you’re really on a plant that has a Space-Amazon that has on its floor space every single item and weapon made by every single planet up to the tech level of the planet? And it’s all in the warehouse? Or 3d printed on demand? And thank Cleon the Galactic Constitution doesn’t require a waiting period on plasma guns!
If we accept the idea that a game is a series of interesting decisions, then there is NOTHING interesting about buying equipment for more than one person at a time. Therefore, this is the definition of something that should be taken off-line and done in between game time.
It shouldn’t matter how this happens. If it’s at the beginning of the game then “Okay, put your orders in and they should be ready by next game/next time you visit this planet. But you wont have the equipment for the rest of today’s session.”
If the shopping trip is at the end of the game then “Give me your shopping list before the next game and I’ll check to see what is ‘in stock and available’ for the next game.
Either way, I have never seen that kind of shopping spree in any movie or science fiction TV show and that’s because it would be dumb in there.
There are many ways to limit a shopping tree to a very minimum amount of time — even a time limit would work - and I’ll admit in my younger days this was an issue in Traveller specifically, but nowadays there’s no excuse for chewing up valuable game time with ‘paychecks and paperclips’.
> Either way, I have never seen that kind of shopping spree in any movie or science fiction TV show
DeletePretty sure half of the Firefly episodes involved the crew needing to buy something or Kaylee window shopping ;)
To be fair, it can be asked why players should be doing *anything* they can — or have to do — in real life. Beyond shopping, I keenly remember one gamer friend going on a rant during a campaign when the characters had to meet someone at a tavern. "WHY ARE WE ALWAYS GOING TO BARS?!" he said, tossing up his character sheet. "WE'RE 21 NOW AND CAN GO TO BARS WHENEVER WE WANT! WHY DO WE HAVE TO KEEP DOING IT IN THE GAME??"
Lesson learned: Sometimes your fantasy changes.
In the Classic Traveller campaign I am running the equipment lists are very basic, supplemented by an occasional "Ship's Locker" addition for whatever system is currently being visited. So far the players have shown no interest in a larger shopping list. Plasma rifles, in my game, are strictly military weapons and unavailable to civilians without a foray into the black market.
ReplyDelete