Consequently, I was equally baffled by both the sections of the Dungeon Masters Guide that included guidelines for converting Gamma World and Boot Hill characters to AD&D (and vice versa) and by articles like "Modern Monsters" in issue #57 (January 1982) of Dragon. I can't be certain, but I think this was the first article I ever read written by Ed Greenwood and I didn't think much of it at the time. Stats for cars and bazookas? Advice and guidelines regarding the functioning of magic in modern, technological worlds? Why? What was the point?
Now, there was no question that Greenwood's article was well presented and made ready use of ideas and suggestions from earlier articles (like James Ward's "Monty and the German High Command," for example). Heck, the article even had footnotes, citing not just previous Dragon material but a host of classic fantasy and SF literature where magic and technology contended. But none of that moved me and I found myself unable -- or unwilling -- to shake off the staid notion that six-guns and sorcery should never appear side by side. It's only been in recent years that I've abandoned my adolescent scruples regarding genre mixing and happily included robots and laser pistols in my fantasy without regret. Live and learn!
(The original version of this post and its comments can be found here.)
It's indeed strange that we tend to box in certain genres. At the same time, the origins of our hobby show that many "crossover" ideas did existed, and perhaps were deemed to be more acceptable than today.
ReplyDeleteIn the 20's and 30's science fiction mags basically declared war on what I guess I'd call non-rational fantasy; the idea was that there was no place for magic, elves, etc. unless they could be explained or extrapolated based on current scientific thought. If you read the mags at the time, this view was rather strident both from the editors and the fandom.
DeleteLords of Creation by Moldvay blended magic and machines well.
ReplyDeleteWhat a great (and largely forgotten) game.
DeleteThe modules were very well done as well. I remember running the Yeti Sanction a couple of times for different groups, which was most unusual for 1980s me.
I prefer my chocolate and peanut butter separate (metaphorically, not literally), but I do like crossovers, because it scratches the "stranger in a strange land" itch. Zelazny's Changeling, yes; Shadowrun, no.
ReplyDeleteBeing born in ‘81, I’m unquestionably of the generation whose earliest exposure to the fantasy genre (beyond my mom reading me fairy tales, Arthurian stories, and The Hobbit at bed time) would have been cartoons that unashamedly mixed science and sorcery: He-Man, Thundarr the Barbarian, Thundercats, and so on and so forth. Not to mention the absolutely-everything-plus-two-kitchen-sinks genre mix seen in superhero comic books. (A space alien, a wizard, a super-scientist, a mutant, and a guy who’s just really good at karate… and they fight crime!)
ReplyDeleteYet, bizarrely, the notion of putting sci-fi elements or even just early modern technology into my D&D games seemed absolutely blasphemous. I can still recall a heated argument between myself and my friend Kevin about how a clock tower – a purely gears and counterweights driven one at that – absolutely ruined my experience playing in his adventure.
But at that same time, we had a great campaign of Star Wars D6 going on on a different day of the week… and we’d all just been introduced to this new Shadowrun game. Maybe this was just pre-teen Ish being an inconsistent and illogical idiot, maybe I was just a larval grognard who hadn’t yet fully metamorphosed into the Old Man Yelling at Cloud I am today… But, I think I just found it easier to accept the notion of “adding fantasy into science fiction” rather than “adding science fiction into fantasy.”
A distinction without a difference, perhaps. But I dunno. It seems like an important distinction to me.
There is a pretty cool module- CM6 Where Chaos Reigns which uses a time travelling, technological foe. I remember it being really well done, but a complex adventure to run (as a 12-15 year old)
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that you bring that up, because I really liked that one as a teenager and plan to do a Retrospective post about it soon.
DeleteWe never had characters that high level so had to "cheat" (as we thought of it at the time) and just make high level characters to have a go at it. But damn some of those set ups or set pieces/battles had us chomping at the bit to run them.
DeleteWe bought it because of the awesome cover.
IMO, a gonzo campaign world is a science fantasy setting. A mix of magic and tech. Gamma World, Cha'alt, Land of a Thousand Towers ( AKA Anomalous Subsurface Environment), World of Hubris, Operation: Unfathomable, etc. My gonzo campaign I've created is a combination of everything I've mentioned, plus a whole bunch more. I like to think of it as a mix of Thundar the Barbarian, Richard Corbin's Den series, Heavy Metal magazine, Primal cartoon series, and a sprinkle of modern day cryptids. Yes, you could run into a Sasquatch or a Chupacabra...or MOTHMAN!
ReplyDeleteI read Brian Daley's Doomfarers of Coramonde in 1977, just a couple of years after I'd first started wargaming and roleplaying. Among other things it features a fight between a dragon and a Viet Nam era M113 APC that got summoned by accident - the people responsible wanted a tank. Turns out a dragon can survive swallowing a white phosphorus grenade (from a GI unconvincingly disguised as a sacrificial maiden) but doesn't like it one bit. .50-caliber M2 fire can numb wings but not penetrate its scales, although it's so worried about catching a round in an eye it makes the mistake of trying to get at the gunner by coming at him from below his field of fire. They wind up killing it by driving 13 tons of armored vehicle over its head.
ReplyDeleteThat was enough to permanently break me of any qualms about mixing magic and tech. I've spent almost fifty years roleplaying and still haven't gotten a chance to commit vehicular dracocide, but it remains an aspirational goal of mine.
I was also very against mixing sci-fi and fantasy when I was young. Understanding the history of sci-fi and fantasy helped me get over that, and so I've been putting little bits of tech in my current campaign. Though the only time my player's have met it was when their thief got shot by a monkey with a gun. They didn't even take the gun afterwards!
ReplyDelete"is like giving a gun to a monkey, and we stopped doing that since the Great Zoo Massacre of 1991."
DeleteIt wasn’t necessarily fully modern but there was this Ral Partha ad that showed off miniatures of fantasy monsters like wyverns and griffons up against WWI era biplanes and I thought it looked so cool and wanted the rules for so long but I don’t think there was a actual game. Just a couple different lines of minis on display together
ReplyDelete