According to Marc, GDW had long wanted to produce a roleplaying game in which the players would take on the roles of active duty military personnel. GDW was, after all, a wargames company first and foremost and many of its employees, including Miller himself, had served in the military, so it seemed like a natural fit. However, there was some concern that playing in a military environment, with a strict hierarchy of ranks and a chain of command, might prove, if not stifling, then at least unduly restrictive to the actions of most players. Anyone who's played RPGs for any period of time knows all too well how much players dislike being told what to do.
That's where the idea of setting the game amidst of World War III came in. The designers reckoned that, in such a tumultuous environment, some of the normal strictures of active duty military life could be plausibly loosened, thereby affording players a bit more freedom of action than they might otherwise be given in the armed services. To ensure this further, GDW contrived the starting situation of the game so that the player characters were survivors of a larger unit that had been defeated and its forces scattered to the four winds. Trapped behind enemy lines and severed from both their supply lines and superiors, they'd have no choice but to make decisions for themselves.
Furthermore, Marc explained that he (and, I assume, many of the other designers at GDW) felt that chaos made for a better gaming environment than did order. His reasoning is pretty straightforward. In periods of chaos, there's much greater scope for individual action and fewer limitations on what the characters can and cannot do. That's not to say there are none, only that there are fewer, which they expected players would find liberating. This perspective runs parallel to what he said above about the restrictiveness of an active duty military. GDW felt that the chaos of the Cold War gone hot was a great way to have their cake and eat it too: military roleplaying but freed of many of its limitations.
In principle, this line of thinking is sound. According to Marc, though, most Twilight: 2000 campaigns of which GDW became aware were very focused on order. Players and referees alike wanted to get the characters away from enemy lines so that they could rejoin NATO forces. Likewise, when characters were unable to do that, they would nevertheless find ways to bring about law and order in whatever locale they found themselves. Despite the game's reputation as being some post-apocalyptic power trip in which might makes right, that's not what GDW found that most people were interested in. Instead, they were interested in re-establishing order and fighting against chaos.
Marc explained that this was true no matter where the campaign was set, whether Poland or the United States. GDW kept doing its best to make the world of Twilight: 2000 chaotic – dividing the USA into three feuding factions, for example – but it didn't work out quite as they had hoped. Players wanted to rebuild and reunite the country, not war over its ashes. This was unexpected, since the whole idea behind T2K was giving players the opportunity to play in a world without central authority of any kind, giving them the ability to forge their own paths. Instead, the players discovered they wanted, if not the opposite of that, something that ran along a very different track.
Even more interesting is that Marc explained this pattern happened again and again in GDW's RPG products. MegaTraveller, for example, took place during an interstellar civil war/succession crisis in the Third Imperium. Shattering the Imperium was intended to open up more options for players, but most players reacted negatively to it, preferring the stable setting of classic Traveller (which, not coincidentally, I am sure, is when Mongoose's edition of the game is set). The same was true with MegaTraveller's follow-up, Traveller: The New Era (set during a dark age following the collapse of the Imperium entirely). It was also true with "the Game," the grand wargame/simulation run to establish the post-Twilight: 2000 future history background for 2300 AD. GDW found that players of "the Game" very quickly worked to put the world in some semblance of order rather than reveling in chaos.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of all this, except to say that I found it incredibly fascinating to hear from Marc Miller. I think most of us who've played RPGs for any length of time would intuitively agree with the assumption that players prefer, even love, chaos and yet Marc said GDW's experience was otherwise. He said that players actually preferred order and would work toward that end when presented with a chaotic situation. Is that true? I'll have to reflect a bit on my own recent gaming experiences before I can provide an answer and, even then, they'll just be anecdotes. What do you think? If you could share your experiences relating to this question in the comments, I'd be very interested in reading them.
I was never a fan of Twilight: 2000 because I was also active duty military at the time and that could have been me!
ReplyDeleteI will say that--from my perspective--we humans like order. The shattering of the Imperium was a shock. We were ok with the Zhodani invading (again), but not with the status quo disintegrating.
I think the issue is that we humans like to know that there is something stable behind us. Adventuring is nice and all, but it really helps to know that there is a home behind when we are done with the other stuff.
John
Fascinating. GameHole Con sounds like a great time.
ReplyDeleteI'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of those players who try to build order out of chaos do so largely because they want to be at or near the top of that new order that evolves, not out of altruism or a philosophical love of civilization over chaos. Power grabbing when the opportunity arises is very much typical gamer behavior - and it happens plenty in real life too.
ReplyDeleteHear, hear.
DeleteYeah players probably see themselves as the American Constantine if they are playing in a fractured US. It is an easy win - diplomacy and nation building are far easier than conquering. But there is a difference between geo political chaos and using a period of destabilization as an opportunity to take power. People have shown historically that they collectively put the kaibosh on the former fairly quickly with latter being harder to grasp and remedy.
DeleteI tend to play characters that do not like authority very much, so I really didn't care for re-establishing order in the war-torn Poland of the imaginary 2000s the few times we played T2K.
ReplyDeleteBut the Fall of the Imperium?
Well, that hit me very hard.
While I accepted the concept of the Rebellion, I never thought that the Imperium would collapse.
Shatter in feuding factions? Yes.
Collapsing utterly? No.
I think that's so because chaos in the present is sort off a given in my mind, while the fall of the Imperium sort of broke the utopian dream of a thriving humanity of the future (though we all know that the Imperium is far from an Utopia).
And that's why I utterly disliked New Era (that and the game system).
As for the more general question.
ReplyDeleteMy players mostly tend to try and support and help enforce *some* kind of order.
Twilight: 2000 never appealed to me, but it sounds to me like GDW was trying to cater to the murder-hobo tendencies of some gamers.
ReplyDeleteI've never liked murder-hoboing, so I'm delighted to hear gamers used their games to try and forge order out of chaos.
I suspect if that's how Twilight: 2000 had been marketed, it would have appealed more to me.
I'm also not convinced that role-players don't like playing military roles. (At least, they're happy to play military roles as depicted in movies and tv.) My experience is that having players play different ranks creates lots of opportunities for roleplaying.
I don't think people want actual order either. Playing an RPG set in a peacetime garrison in a stable dictatorship would get boring and frustrating.
ReplyDeletePeople want that fuzzy borderline between order and chaos. Too much chaos and there's no societal structure. Too much order and there's no leeway for an interesting story.
The biggest problem we had with Star Trek the RPG was the ranks and their hierarchy, especially in a large, D&D size group.
ReplyDeleteIn Aftermath type games, we never tried to rebuild order. We were more like Mad Max in Thunderdome, The Magnificient Seven, or the Man With No Name, sometimes hired by fledgling communities, but never sticking around for the hard work of civilization rebuilding and governing.
The Wild West has a great blend of chaos and small, disconnected communities without central government, to give players the best of both worlds.
When I read the intro of Gygax's Keep on the Borderlands, it reminds me of that same mix of order and chaos: "The Realm of mankind is narrow and constricted. Always the forces of Chaos press upon its borders, seeking to enslave its populace, rape its riches, and steal its treasures."
Humans are orderly (proponents of law) by nature. That's why we have civilization and when it breaks down, as after a war or plague, we rebuild it. Individuals leverage chaos as a means to rearrange the existing order (revolution) to create a new order more favorable to them. No sane person wants perpetual chaos, instead they want chaos only in so far as it offers them a chance to implement their preferred order.
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of an old saw that people in child care circles tend to say - “children crave structure”. Despite the fact that they often seem unruly and chaotic, children ultimately value and respect having boundaries placed on them, and will often create imaginary games where there is a structure of who is in charge and a list of rules so complex the game isn’t playable. While this doesn’t always bear out, for the most part it appears true. Children may say otherwise, but they ultimately “feel” that rules are an example of love and concern, and too much freedom feels like no one cares about them. It isn’t surprising to me that this could subconsciously carry over into “adult” play.
ReplyDeleteHave to remind of one detail of the setting (t2k) you actually mentioned: the PCs _are_ members of the established army who are left behind after enemy offensive. If the players are interested at all in roleplaying such, they are necessarily trying to rejoin the main force. If not... well, they probably wouldn't be playing in such a setting then. ;))
ReplyDeleteIn my own experience saw both tendencies as well as something in between. Can't tell which one was more common.
In real history also all the variants can be seen. A common approach not mentioned here seems to be some kind of a small community keeping itself and its land order and not giving a flying f*ck to what happens outside. Also, a thing already mentioned in this discussion and quite common irl is for several factions of Law&Order forces to just shred country to pieces in their attempts to establish said L&O. %) The idea of 3 factions fighting in t2k seems realistic and providing the players an interesting choice who to support - maybe the factions aren't developed in a way allowing for meaningful choice?
Mike
9/10 of murder hobos are intrigued by the idea of being murder bosses and would like to subscribe to that newsletter. Especially if it comes with free _cloaks of respectability +1_.
ReplyDeleteThis should not be a surprise to any adults in the room -- nor, I guess, that game designers/writers/publishers don't inherently have a lot of self-insight.
I wonder how this might be relevant:
ReplyDelete"The Realm of mankind is narrow and constricted. Always the forces of Chaos press upon its borders, seeking to enslave its populace, rape its riches, and steal its treasures. If it were not for a stout few, many in the Realm would indeed fall prey to the evil which surrounds them. Yet, there are always certain exceptional and brave members of humanity, as well as similar individuals among its allies - dwarves, elves, and halflings - who rise above the common level and join battle to stave off the darkness which would otherwise overwhelm the land. Bold adventurers from the Realm set off for the Borderlands to seek their fortune. It is these adventurers who, provided they survive the challenge, carry the battle to the enemy. Such adventurers meet the forces of Chaos in a testing ground where only the fittest will return to relate the tale. Here, these individuals will become skilled in their profession, be it fighter or magic-user, cleric or thief. They will be tried in the fire of combat, those who return, hardened and more fit. True, some few who do survive the process will turn from Law and good and serve the masters of Chaos, but most will remain faithful and ready to fight chaos wherever it threatens to infect the Realm."
I’m going to say that this shouldn’t surprise people as much as it seems to. Look at popular media, for instance. In most action or superhero flicks the “protagonist” or hero is actively trying to restore order while the villain is seeking to disrupt it. There are a few exceptions, like the Star Wars movies, but even there the heroes are seeking to restore an older, better order against those who corruptly destroyed it. That’s the pattern even in films about government corruption—the story ends with the exposure and cleaning up of the corruption (see “Rebel Ridge” on Netflix).
ReplyDeleteI mean, “Lawful” and “Good” are equated in OD&D, as are “Chaos” and “Evil”. Is chaos ever perceived as good, under any circumstance? “Chaotic Good” only really makes sense as a response to a corrupt order.
Fascinating post. I think this holds true even for old school D&D as well: although most campaigns aren't concerned with anything so grandiose as state-building, there's an expectation that they will use their power to shape their broader setting to some degree: eg become a head monk or ranger lord or whatever, clear a territory, build a stronghold, etc.
ReplyDeleteEven success in most of the old-school modules implies shifting the world away from chaos and anarchy towards order and stability, at least, up to a point: eg defeating the giants or the slavers or the drow means that that part of the world becomes just that tiny bit safer. I think this is baked in to narrative at a deeper level and I think the story arcs in games tend to reflect this.
some of this may be related to the subsection of people who play military game, being self selecting
ReplyDeleteThe idea of the PCs attempting to re-establish order (or more likely, help some third party re-establish order) fits very soundly with my experience/majority of groups.
ReplyDeleteOne thing, I think, that shouldn't be overlooked is that both T2K and Red Dawn were released in the same year, and both played heavily on the "overcome this defeat and restore what was taken away" ideal.
They even have the same initial ideals of scrounge resources, hit back against a larger, better equipped and supplied enemy, establish connections to like-minded groups.
We didn't see T2K as murder-hobo-with-guns, or "chance to become the next Negan", but heroically-bring-back-the-Old-Republic. And to be heroic we needed to be underdogs, so there had to be an initial defeat.
Also there are gamer assumptions at play. Because it is an RPG T2K really boils down to WW3 D&D as much as D&D is fantasy Vietnam as much as traveller is D&D in space. While the nuances might be different you run into the same things in all rpgs because of how they were created and the core assumptions that creation builds in. I think the big test would be to see what people do with story game structures in the same “genre” and compare outcomes.
ReplyDeleteMost people I know who played Gamma World wanted to rebuild civilization, not live off its scraps. They may not have wanted to rebuild it exactly the way it was before, but restarting is very tempting.
ReplyDeleteTwilight 2000, The Morrow Project, and Gamma World all have settings where the time since "the end" increases from "it just happened" to "a century or two" to "long, long ago."
ReplyDeleteIt is easier to play at restoring order if it is fresh in the character's memory and recent in the setting's history. T2K characters can cross the Atlantic. TMP is similar in theme, but advances the setting into a new dark age. Home is dead and buried. Gamma World has no notion of home because most PCs were born after the End.
Some of the late 1990s theological horror / post apocalypse games make a weird edge case, where PCs remembered the old world, but couldn't recreate it by divine fiat. I'd like to hear actual play reports of games where order was restored or not.