For the most part, I agree with Ben's position, in large part because I've observed what he's talking about in various campaigns I've refereed and played in over several decades. Broadly speaking, it's been my experience that there are two approaches to playing a character in an RPG campaign.
- The first approach is closest to what I suspect most of us instinctively imagine when we think of "roleplaying" – a kind of acting, in which the player speaks as his character and identifies with him by saying things like "I attack the orc" or "I check the wall for secret doors."
- The second approach is much more distant, in which the player treats his characters almost as a token or playing piece, as in a boardgame. "My character attacks the orc" or "My character checks the wall for secret doors."
- There's also is a middle ground between these two, with the player vacillating between each extreme, depending on the circumstances.
What I find interesting is that, when I'm acting as the referee, I tend to switch between the two approaches as well. For example, in my House of Worms campaign, there are non-player characters I consider important and whom I fully roleplay, speaking in-character and giving them unique mannerisms. Less important NPCs, like Sákbe road guards or shopkeepers, don't warrant this sort of treatment and they're closer to the "token" approach. I switch back and forth between these two approaches freely, often within the same session, and it's never really been a problem. The players understand and accept what I'm doing without any difficulty.
That said, there are occasions when an NPC takes on a life of his own, almost completely against my will. I'll create this character, intending for him to be unimportant or insignificant, and then – somehow – he becomes more than that, right down to having his own unique voice. As a general rule, even when I've got a strong idea of what a non-player character is like, I don't do funny voices. I'm not an actor and, truth be told, I feel self-conscious about engaging in that kind of play. Despite this, sometimes an NPC will simply start speaking through me, funny voice and all. It's not common, but it happens often enough that I thought it worth mentioning.
All of this is to say that, as a pastime and entertainment, roleplaying is pretty strange. There's no single right way to approach it. Moreover, it's quite possible, probably even, that not all of the people involved in an RPG campaign might be playing it the same way. Indeed, some people might even change how they play it from session to session or even within the same session, shifting between the two approaches I outlined above. For a game, that's downright unusual, since, as Ben points out in his video, most games require that the participants are engaging with it in the same or very similar ways. RPGs are not like that and I think that's fascinating.
(I suspect I'll have more to say about this topic, but I think this is a good starting point to begin the discussion.)
I think there's a subtype of 1, call it .5, where there's even more acting involved. Whereas in 1, players may consistently take a 1st person POV, "I hit it with my axe," but not get into voice acting or emoting.
ReplyDeleteThis is just what the Forge called stance. You can have in-character and out-of-character stances while roleplaying (though before 2000, making an effort to stick with an in-character or actor stance at all times was usually called high roleplaying in the circles I ran in). And you can even change stances from moment to moment while playing; I think most players do.
ReplyDeleteWhat's really key for me, though, is it goes beyond the usual canard that "roleplaying is different from playacting or doing a voice, you can still roleplay in the third person, as long as you're making decisions from the character's perspective." No; false. That's in-character or actor stance or high roleplaying. You can also roleplay from an OOC stance (with pawn stance and self-insertion being particularly common in OSR play). You don't have to think in character to roleplay; you just have to play a role, i.e., steer your fictional dude around the interactive fictional world being simulated in the shared imagination space.
As long as the fictional milieu exhibits both fictional positioning and tactical infinity, any kind of controlling an avatar in that milieu that involves making decisions and interacting with said milieu is roleplaying.
The think-in-character topic was provocative to us as kids, and arose commonly in startup campaigns: the player knows it's a band of marauding gnolls, but would the character have any frame of reference (yet)? Can a player govern his character's actions far beyond his/her given int & wisdom? I was a suburban kid. We knew about cars and engines all day long. But riding the bus? The subway? Helpless out of the gate, but with the capacity to learn. Also butterfly knives.
DeleteWhen we started playing as kids in the 80's it was all third-person speaking and an instinctive survival/resource-managing type of play. Then, going through adolescence and early adulthood, we drifted towards "acting" and focusing very much on character backgrounds and motivations. As gamemaster, I would spend hours creating my NPCs, to the point that, in play, I would really feel like "being" them, funny (mostly not funny) voices and all. That was our Golden Age but, as I reflect upon it today, also a bit too much unbalanced towards storytelling and railroading for the campaign's sake (or at least that was my excuse). Getting into adulthood and now middle-age we keep striving to recreate those feelings, which were admittedly very very strong and emotionally engaging, but the work-family-hobby time balance weights so much against the hobby that both me and my group convene without hardly a thought gone to the game in-between sessions. During covid, playing on Rolld20, I went back to Old School and it was fun to not being burdened by the "acting" itch and just exploring dungeons. Now we're playtesting my game "Fate of Aurora" and I'm working really hard at finding a good place between the two styles!
ReplyDeleteThis closely echoes my thinking and attachment. The beauty of the game is found through incorporating stylistic differences into something rewarding. Which is basically life.
DeleteWe've all dated that gorgeous girl who speaks about herself in the third person and somehow her black cat is always watching. And then you realize it's six black cats, one for every room, and the bedroom cat seems particularly judgmental. This is weird. I've got to get out of here.
We were definitely the second example. We saw ourselves as controlling our characters, not embodying them. ---Jim Hodges
ReplyDeleteThe roleplaying sessions I've played in and DM'ed usually involve very little roleplaying in the normal sense of the word (roleplaying as acting). I think the games I've played are more along the lines of a "Fantasy Adventure Game" which is exactly what's printed below the title DUNGEONS & DRAGONS on the Moldvay Basic Set.
ReplyDeleteI have found this shift happens when the player is handling more characters. AD&D modules were often written with the expectation that there would be like 6-10 PCs of varying classes and levels, and I rarely saw that many individual players involved. There was an expectation that PCs would have “henchmen and hirelings” but I think often that just evolved into having one main PC and a few sub-characters that followed them. As such, roleplaying tended more towards the “My character does this” style. Once I had experience with games like Vampire: The Masquerade, where it was expected that you would very heavily play only one person, the “I do this” style came forward, and later versions of D&D tend to cater to this better.
ReplyDeleteWe roleplay the living shit out of stuff. Some full on with voices, others no voices but in character and a slide into pawn control in combat at times.
ReplyDeleteWe had a guest DM travel hours to play DCC with us. The funnel started with our 4 random 0 level schmos and we spent almost all of the 4 hours in funny voices taking on the role of these confused townsfolk seeking justice and answers.
The DM was a pro and rolled with it. But we didn't really finish the adventure. To be honest the adventure for us was not THE fun, it was the catalyst for roleplay. Yes, the adventure was fun and thought provoking but we truly enjoy funny voices and pretending to be someone we are not.
I will point out that anyone can create hundreds of voices without resorting to accents.
https://youtu.be/FVmAEezr6ao?si=cGeoLYdYmNGfc02_
Are voices required no. Is it essential no. Is it fun. For many of us at the table yes. Is this for everyone...no.
First-person narrative, third-person narrative... you do you, just don't be a sanctimonious dick about which way is "better", and it's all good.
ReplyDeleteThis feels like another performance of the same script I've been hearing, and reading, since the early 1980s. I get why it's evergreen, it's something that new players are going to discover at some point, and want to talk about. I think it's necessary, and healthy, and overhyped by attention-seekers.
ReplyDelete"Role playing" where you try to distance yourself from your own personality is lame. That's partially the reason why alignment is lame.
ReplyDeleteMost people want to be PART of the fantasy THEMSELVES. That's why they say, "I".
They want to ESCAPE INTO the fantasy and speak as if they are there and bring some of their own personal bagged into the character they are playing.
Really, role playing is just a huge COLLAGE of identity and all of them should be embraced.
I part ways with the full on Voice Over actor / Drama Class with Dice garbage that becomes more of a scripted soap opera over an actual "game" vs. adventurous threats, tension and danger.
Also, there's just too much personality or "meta" heisenberg effect going on to ever be a "true" role play. It's dumb to think that ever exists in some "pure" form.
Like it or not, most nerds I played with growing up were way too "masculine" to play act the entire time. Most nerds are attracted to these games as an artistic / jazz like puzzle/problem solving game with a tiny bit of "acting" thrown in. That's my classic D&D.
I don't really care about the "acting, first person, third person" question.
ReplyDeleteWhile watching the video, however, I felt pretty uncomfortable with TUNIC.
It's a rather weird way of underlining the importance of agency, so weird it actually risks undermining it.
Until he spoke about how dungeons easily make player choice relevant, TUNIC sounded pretty much like a recipe for "the DM as movie director".
Agreed. It's interesting that the discussion here has focused on the play-style topic when TUNIC seems to be the main point of the video. On one hand, I can understand the desire to "pace" the game session. (I'm reminded of 'Hamlet's Hitpoints' by Robin Laws.) On the other hand, this obviously poses the danger of railroading. Since the dungeon environment imposes a structure on player actions, I guess this video is an argument for...wandering monsters? Maybe stage-managing game sessions is something that people have come to expect.
DeleteIf I'm speaking as my character I'll be using "I" eg I don't think that's a very good idea. Perhaps we should attempt to negotiate before we resort to murder?".
ReplyDeleteIf I'm describing what my character is doing, I'm always going to use my character's name. It's hard enough to get other people to remember PC names when conversing in character ("Who's this Dick fellow you're referring to, Anarwyn? Don't tell me that last beating from the town watch has addled your wits!") and every bit of reinforcement that the swordsman with the orange and black checkered shield is named Trake helps. You're almost never going to hear just "my character" at the table, but Trake is going to fail his saves, fall off balconies, and stab hungry owlbears pretty regularly. And I'll probably be calling the other players by their PC names while that's happening.
It was always the same for us, and also if someone did a voice for their character, whenever they spoke in that voice they were assumed to be talking in-character.
DeleteDeep discussions of this stuff leave me cold. Plus that kid is too young to have any idea what first-wave gaming was like.
ReplyDeleteOf course. Nobody can know anything about the past if they didn't experience it personally. "History," what's that?
DeleteI distinguish ‘acting’ in the thespian sense from role-playing. The latter to me denotes making decisions from a character’s perspective, regardless of whether a voice performance accompanies that.
ReplyDeleteIn resolving a social interaction with an NPC, for instance, I’m not judging as if awarding a Tony, Oscar or Emmy. What matters is the substance of the proposition; in-world delivery by the character is a function of game stats and (if appropriate) a dice roll, but substantial aspects weight and bound the spread of outcomes.
Again, it’s different from role-assumption, which is treating the persona basically as an avatar of oneself (but with different features, capabilities, and such): “What I do were I an elfin warrior-mage in this situation?”
In a game meant primarily to challenge the player’s skill at solving its problems, needless hindrance of the latter — demands to “play stupid” (or ignorant) to act in character — is something I want to avoid.
Such demands could come from a “simulation” fetish, but in my experience seem mostly to come from GMs treating players rather as stage players in the GM’s scripted drama.
It’s to my mind better to try to avoid presenting scenarios calling for that. It’s the flip side of the coin of not presenting a puzzle the solution to which requires bizarrely out-of-character knowledge.
— Phillip H.
The thing Dave Arneson discovered in his Braunstein that became Blackmoor, was describing your character's actions, "anything may be attempted".
ReplyDeleteI consider Fantasy Role-Play (or "RPG") to require role-playing as your character. The Gamemaster/Referee/whatever describes a world and you react as that character would.
Rules are fairly irrelevant, and can easily be dispensed with and run freeform. Sometimes I run complex systems, but that just means the players have to also know something.
It is certainly possible to run dungeon crawls as a wargame without any role-play, but it's not what I'm interested in.