I'd like to call upon the wisdom of readers with long experience playing games derived from Chaosium's Basic Role-Playing. Lately, I've been looking with less judgmental eyes on RuneQuest and finding within it – I speak of its 1979 second edition rather than its current iteration – worthy of greater admiration, both for its setting and for its rules, both of which really were ahead of their time.
Nevertheless, one aspect of RQ continues to bedevil me, namely combat. BRP combat, particularly in its RuneQuest iteration, is much more fiddly than I'd like. The combination of strike ranks, attack rolls, defense rolls, criticals, impales, fumbles, hit locations, and armor absorption is simply too much for my feeble mind to handle. A lifetime of playing Dungeons & Dragons has, by and large, mentally conditioned me for fast and simple combats, each round of which can be resolved with only a couple of dice rolls and the most basic of math. RuneQuest is several steps more complex than I enjoy. And yet I can't deny that there can be many benefits from complexity. I sometimes mention that, a few years ago, I had the opportunity to play Rolemaster with a referee who knew its rules well and helped make the process of using them relatively painless for me. As a consequence, I re-evaluated my older assessment of them as too arcane for my tastes. Perhaps the same is true of RuneQuest's combat system?
That's why I'd like to hear from anyone who's refereed an RQ campaign for some length. What was your experience with combat? Did you find a way to make it run more quickly and smoothly? Is there some crucial insight into its workings that might help me overcome my concern about its fiddliness? Alternately, is there some iteration of BRP that manages to streamline combat without losing too much detail? I know that OpenQuest is well regarded in some quarters, but I haven't kept up with its development since its original release. Is that still a good option or are there others I should consider? Shower me with your thoughts on this, please.
When I played RuneQuest 2nd edition we ditched strike ranks in favor of party initiative. I don't know if it sped things up but it simplified things.
ReplyDeleteAlso for 3rd edition they replaced Defense with Dodge which definately slowed things down. I hit! Nope, actually it dodged.
Openquest's combat is probably the simplest version of the BRP combat system (and a slightly simplified version of Stormbringer's) but I think it manages to avoid getting too simple.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's been pretty consistent across all editions.
I would highly recommend you take a look at OpenQuest (now in it's 3rd iteration I believe). It really smooths out the RQ1/2/3 systems for combat, and if the whole thing removes too many RQ2 things you like, you can easily enough port things back and forth. When I wanted to run RQ again about 10-11 years ago, I ended up going with a mostly OQ system with some RQ2 elements- a couple of play sessions of BTB RQII just no longer floated my boat or the players. It's easier to add the complication than take it away once it's already baked in. The first game I ran was a take on Balastor's Barracks that was super fun
ReplyDeleteOne simple thing you can do to make for a more "heroic" RQ style game (i.e. characters can soak up more injuries) is not averaging the characteristic scores when determining HP- that's something I saw from the BRP core book options.
I second the recommendation to take a look at Openquest.
DeleteThere have been so many variants published over the years, adapted to the specific game, and the original RQ is probably not the incarnation I would run today.
ReplyDeleteFirst ditch strike ranks. Have everyone move in order of DEX, or add a d10 if you must have randomness.
Second, ditch hit locations. They work just fine, but make the game deadlier and slower. If you don't want that, just use the HP pool instead.
Third, if you want a more heroic game, don't average the stats to calculate HP, just add them.
I've used those rules a lot and the games runs just fine, and smoother.
I usually also add one rule, which you might or not want, and that's to have getting hit with HP/2 in one go is a Serious Wound which necessitates a roll against CON to not keel over and be out of the fight.
I don't actually mind the deadliness of RQ combat; it's the slowness with which combat runs that deters me.
DeleteIn my experience, hit locations both slow it down and make it deadly, so I'd ditch it.
DeleteI second Open Quest. It moves much faster when you take out hit locations and the serious wound rules. The current version has a free SRD document on the 101 games website.
DeleteRunequest, and related games, were my groups go-to until I discovered the OSR. None of us were fans of the fiddliness of combat, the source of which I believe is mostly the strike rank system. Our alternative was to use strike rank like an action budget, and use group initiatives. You could make as many actions as add up to 12 SR a round, blocking included. We eventually ditched this in favour of Mythras' 3-action system which I favour much more. All in all I think little is added by the Strike Rank system and I think you would improve the overall quality of play by dropping it and using an initiative-action resolution system of your choice
ReplyDeleteStrike ranks, I find, tend to speed things up. In most combat rounds, you know when everybody is going to act, so you're saved the step of having to roll initiative. The hit-location die can be rolled at the same time as damage (which doesn't usually involve a d20).
ReplyDeleteIn our campaign, we've switched from Rules Cyclopedia to Runequest 2 while the characters are in Glorantha (dispatched upon a sorcerous errand). Should they return to their own world, we'll switch back. I think RQ combats are usually quicker though, especially at level 7/8, because people are taken out of the fight so quickly.
That said, I think the best iteration of RQ is Mythras. When we next have an in-person session that's combat heavy, I'm going to switch the PCs' character sheets to Mythras beforehand. The special effects and action economy really improve the tactical aspect of combat and give the PCs much more agency.
I've played a lot of BRP inmy gaming life, almost as much as D&D. And my go to verrsion has always been Stormbringer. So, I'd say plug Stormbringer combat into RQ. If you want to keep RQ's 3 levels of success, plug Elric! combat instead of classic Stormbringer. Years ago I ran a Griffin Mountain campaign using a mix of RQ2 and RQ3 and I ditched SR in favour of DEX. But it was more about SR being different between the two editions than mere speed. Last year I ran RQG just fine with all the bells and whistles. With expert players though.
ReplyDeleteThe BRP 1e-3e booklet's and Call of Cthulhu have a much simpler combat system. If my memory serves me right early editions of Stormbringer also lack weapon HP and strike ranks, though they do introduce random armour points.
ReplyDeleteI would suggest dropping strike ranks and hit locations.
ReplyDeleteI think criticals, impales and fumbles are important to keep. Because of the way armour subtracts from damage, it's entirely possible that one combatant couldn't damage the other without the special rolls.
And the fumble table is such an important part of RuneQuest's history it warrants being retained for that reason alone.
If you've got strike ranks pre-calculated on character sheets, it ends up working like a fixed initiative system and runs more quickly than you'd think. The main thing to get used to is tracking both hit location and general HP when a hit goes through. I'd recommend running a combat with some people and see how it goes. If something comes up that is genuinely too fiddly, then find a BRP that drops that element (Stormbringer dropping hit locations and strike rank for example). The defense rolls can add a bit of whiff but outnumbering an opponent helps since most characters in RQ2 will only get one parry per round. RQ2 combat is much less abstract than D&D, so you do have more rules to track, but the end result in most cases is still quick and decisive. I'd say try it first, you might actually be capable of running it perfectly fine!
ReplyDeleteI echo the recommendation for Stormbringer (1st edition, in my case). The combat is more interesting than in D&D, but it is still fast.
ReplyDeleteFor HP, CON plus 1/2 SIZ.
ReplyDeleteDitch SR, use a simple DEX +d6 if 1H, -d6 if 2H.
Criticals on 10% of skill or less, ignores all armor, plus use Stormbringer/Hawkmoon critical table. Don't worry about hit locations.
Speeds up nicely.
Check out the current iteration of Delta Green for what is _probably_ the most streamlined BRP combat derivative.
ReplyDeleteDelta Green 2 has the best/simplest iteration of BRP combat so far, but I do wonder if -- once you've stripped out all the modern-day bits (which is where it shines) -- you'll have much left that will be of use in a fantasy game.
DeleteIt's certainly worth a look.
I thought I would jump into this conversation--I'm fascinated by other peoples experiences with other gaming systems! As a long time user of Rolemaster, I feel that the rules allow for the grittiness of combat that my players enjoy, when and if, combat occurs. Most of the time our game lives in the "theatre of the mind" supported by Terry's Shadow World setting--not unlike EPT for James? However, when battle ensues I want some color commentary! A dice roll with "6 hits" means virtually nothing, even if I describe a sharp slice to the forearm and a spurt of blood. After 35 years of play, it's never boring and it helps me as a DM for the more functional aspects of gaming!
ReplyDeleteI've been playing one version or another of BRP for a very long time (my RQ campaign is more than 40 years old) and my advice is to find the version of combat that you and your players enjoy the most and use that. OpenQuest has a very good reputation; Stormbringer is fast and lethal with Mythras being very good all around. Try whichever you have the time and energy for and see what you like.
ReplyDeleteI would like to second what Gene said about precalculating strike ranks and having that data on the character sheets; it does move faster than you might think. I use SR, hit locations, impale/crush/slash rules, the works with no problems; I don't use encumbrance/fatigue though.
Two notes:
1. Regarding heroic hit points, some versions of BRP allow for the enchanting of hit points if you can afford to buy them or invest the time in improving your enchant skill to the point where you can cast the spell yourself. That makes heroic levels of hit points quite possible in longer running groups.
2. Rolemaster - I love that game. I give my players access to MERP Middle Earth just so they have the chance to score magic weapons that use those nasty critical tables. Then all they have to do is make it back to Glorantha alive.
Back in 1983 when I encountered Runequest, I enjoyed the relatively granular but transparent combat system. Everyone I knew played hex wargames, so any complication seemed trivial. Besides, the rules were easier to read than AD&D at the time.
ReplyDeleteSome further ideas. As someone rightly observed, DEX ranks are just one step away from SR in complexity. To simplify further you need to eliminate statement of intent phase, movement of non engaged characters, effects of movement on SR or DXR, and use DEX rank as a cyclic initiative where character have action + half movement each turn. That will give you something like D&D5 action economy, while breaking very little in the rest of RQ ruleset. Rune Magic would lose its speed advantage, Spirit Combat would not be slower than other actions, and little else. That's a horrible profanation of RQ's fine combat system, but, as proven by D&D5, it's really really simple.
ReplyDeleteI would definitely check out Mythras by The Design Mechanism, i.e., what used to be RuneQuest 6. Combat is very streamlined and fun. https://the-design-mechanism.mybigcommerce.com/mythras/
ReplyDeleteSome of the comments make think that the rules are correctly understood, as some of the tweaks looks like making the combat slower instead of shorter, at first glance.
ReplyDelete1. Strike ranks.
Write Strike ranks on the sheet for each weapon. There is no "reset" after a "round" in Runequest. A round has 12 strike ranks. So we are at strike rank 10 and everyone has done its actions and the last character to act was Rurik who acted at strike rank 12. Our character Rurik now cast a unprepared spell (Strike rank +5). He will not act at "Strike rank 5" of the next round. Instead, Rurik will act at Strike Rank 3 of the next round (10+5 counted in 12 = 11, 12, 1, 2, 3). So what happens at the table when Rurik has finished his action is not "Let's start at SR 1, what is everyone doing ? Let's calculate everyone Strike Rank". What we do is : "Ok Rurik, you've just acted, what is your next action? - I will cast an unprepared spell! - Ok, just calculate your strike rank from now". So there is no "rest round" where everyone calculates its initiative/rank, because everyone states his next action just when his own action has been resolved. Then each player can himself look at his strike rank himself and the GM just shift to the next Strike rank. You'll see if you try that that's it's very fast. In fictional terms, everyone is looking at character in motion: we know their next actions.
2. Hit points.
I use a tweak for damage rolls. basically using d6, d8 and d10 only, by set of weapon size (small/normal, large, really big 2 hands stuffs). And we double them. So it's like 2d6, 2d8 or 2d10. This avoid having a good roll but rolling a bad damage dice, which is frustrating. Suppression of hit locations seems to me something that will slow combat. A big hit to only one location will generally stop combat in one round. Maybe in two, specially with this damage tweak. The thing is that it's not a problem to be lethal in Runequest during combat: combat is high risk while you are fighting, but the magic out of combat is really forgiving (regrowing limbs easily, etc.). Just go to any priest.
It's also possible that you're running combat with characters that are not prepared. The huge difference between RQ and D&D is that equipment doesn't matter much, it's all about preparation. A RQ character that casted his spell just before combat is far more efficient that the same character that is not prepared (ie. casting bladesharp BEFORE combat really matters for ending a fight soon, because somebody will fall after losing an arm in one hit).
RQ2 has been widely discussed at adeptplay on all those issues: https://adeptplay.com/actual-play/headwaters-continental-divide ; here for instance, and in a lots of other posts connected to the tags.
Continuous strike ranks sounds like a good idea, except that it gives lots of extra attacks to a spear user. Do you want someone SIZ 15+, DEX 19+ (not at all unachievable for a human) to attack EVERY strike rank (SIZ SR 1, DEX SR 0, Weapon SR 0 for net SR 1)?
DeleteThere are systems designed for that. RQ weapons would need to be tweaked for that.
I would caution against futzing with weapons. I tried various alternate weapons tables, and returned to the RQ1 weapons because making all weapons (of the same size) sort of equivalent makes weapon choice boring.
I play with it all, even the optional rule for delaying strike ranks to adjust hit location. Now I don't always want such an involved combat system, but I have close to zero interest running any other BRP game because they are all missing some of the features of RQ...
ReplyDeleteWhile simpler systems are faster, I find it pretty easy to move things along pretty quickly. I keep track of the players SRs for the battle, asking them what they are doing (and making notes of SR adjustment), then as others have mentioned, it's just an initiative count up. I don't play with specials (I run RQ1 so impale was the only special) instead I make impaling weapons crit at 10%. The Judges Guild GM screen makes the crit/fumble chances handy (as well as the fumble table - OK, so because I use the screen, I'm using the RQ2 fumble table... shh... No these days I claim I run RQ 1.5). What helps is I'm so comfortable with the system that I can coach players and also keep things moving. To me, RQ combat runs no slower than other moderately complex systems. Hit locations mean that often a single good hit takes out a combatant, especially when you can delay SR and modify hit location. I've also pointed out when it's worth taking 1/2 chance to hit, delay to SR 12 and choose hit location.
I'd find a spot in one my games for you if you wanted to learn as a player... :-)
BTW, if you want to use Cults of Prax, two interesting cults, Humakt and Yelmalio are a reason NOT to ditch hit locations. Their "don't wear armor on..." geases are somewhat survivable if you have hit locations. Without hit locations, you have to decide how to handle partial armor.
We should use computers to crunch the numbers in complex combat systems! I'm working on a detailed combat module for OSR D&D designed to be used with Foundry VTT. Hit locations, piecemeal & layered armor, armor damage, weapon vs. armor modifiers, extra attacks by weapon speed, impales, over 200 death & dismemberment results -- resolved in a fraction of a second :) Here is a demo: https://alexjmarshall.github.io/combat-demo/
ReplyDeleteOne solution is the "PenDragonPass" combat rules by David Dunham. Uses Pendragon opposite roll system. Makes combat quick and simple. May require some tinkering if you want to keep the RQ HP range, but is doable.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.pensee.com/dunham/pdp.html
I wanted to suggest trying to derive something from Pendragon myself...
Delete(Part 1)
ReplyDeleteIs it the case though that you just aren't interested in combat at all? Because D&D is not tactically interesting, then the prospect of a combat system "like d&d but more long winded!" of course is not an appealing prospect.
You have to be interested in the tactics, and in some of the detail of what happens in a more complex combat system, if you aren't then of course any effort in that direction is a waste of time.
I am another Mythras fan (which is essentially RuneQuest 6), which does make some refinements to the standard BRP/RuneQuest combat system (most especially Special Effects), but it is more complicated than standard d&d.
The question for me is that is the additional detail and complexity worth it? Am I interested in the tactical choices that might happen in a combat? Am I interested in tooling up my armour and weapons of my character? What can I afford to buy for armour? Should I shell out on a very good helmet and cuirass and trust in my shield to ward against attacks to my limbs? Should I raise my combat style skill exclusively or do I try to balance out my Endurance, Evade and Brawn along with my combat style? Can I find a trainer to learn a new combat style trait? Should I fight with a spear and try to leverage long reach? or do I stick with an axe and take advantage of the ability to sunder armour?
These are largely Mythras/RQ6 questions, not entirely older RQ. OpenQuest does a pretty good job simplifying combat and the system as a whole but it also loses some of the detail which makes it interesting in the first place, so it feels a bit dull to me.
Mythras revolutionised BRP/RQ style combat by introducing Special Effects, but it is certainly a bit more complex. On the flip side what this does is allow combats to be resolved with (often) a couple of successful attacks, not a grindfest of cutting up opponents into little bits, whittling down HP.
An average human in Mythras has 4 hp in their arm. A broadsword does 1d8 damage, so just an *average* hit from a broadsword will take an arm to zero hp. When a hit location falls to zero or below, the victim gets a "Serious Wound" which may stun you, cause you to drop whatever you are holding. A serious wound to the head, chest or abdomen may knock you out for minutes, effectively taking you out of the fight. This is why PCs are usually keen to armour-up. At the same time a good way to run interesting combats is to run low-armour campaigns, otherwise melees become realistically drawn-out as fighters can whale on each other with sometimes little injury.
Older RQ like RQ2 and RQ3 are prone to getting into escalating magical enhancement competitions where resistance to damage is piled on top of armour, to be met by ever increasingly magically-enhanced magical weapons and attacks which practically goes on forever, and I don't think the "new" RQG has done anything about this.
(Part 2)
ReplyDeleteBefore you get to questions about the system, you have to ask are you interested in the detail of combat at all? if you are, then systems which produce "quick and simple" combat results are not necessarily that engaging. A Jane Austen novel is not going to be a good read if your complaint is "oh my god why is there so much dialogue?! Why can't these conversations be resolved more quickly and simply?" and there are of course writers who can provide this, hello Robert E Howard. Then we can complain "Why is Conan so psychologically shallow? Why don't we ever find out about his interior life?".
For everyone there are going to be different points of balance between tactical interest, level of detail, clarity of the system, speed of resolution which are expressed in a rules system. I am reading through the rpg system from Codex Integrum at the moment, which tries to represent some of the understanding from HEMA into a d20-like system, and it is very hard for me to even understand. I come from BRP so the d&d conventions are unfamiliar and it puts on top of that another system for representing HEMA moves which I only vaguely understand. It is very much written for players familiar with both d&d and HEMA and for them no doubt the system is a no-brainer but at the moment for me, used to Mythras, it's too complex.