Retainers fell out of favor for me personally in the late 80s and it wasn't until my own player-resurrection about 15 years ago that I brought them back. I think that had something to do with the fact that in the early days we tended to have a high PC death or retirement rate: we simply tended toward slow progression, low-level play. We also ignored level-appropriately scaled adventures. We mixed Isle of Dread, Castle Amber and Dungeonland(!) in one campaign, Rahasia and Pharoah and homebrew diplomacy adventures, BattleSystem and Night's Dark Terror. Now, we didn't do that stuff a ton but that, combined with the fact that we would use pre-generated characters for long module strings, we almost always played the game with the assumption of retainers for torch and treasure bearing, as well as pools to replace unalived PCs quickly.
We were actually more protective of some of our favored retainers than our own characters: (Dorf, Biff, Bamf, R.I.P.) and I think maybe one time that I can recall ever went through the rigamarole to resurrect a PC. Remember those Last Will and Testaments on the AD&D character sheets? We always listed our best retainer to take over everything. (We did not, however, distinguish between the henchmen and retainer NPCs. Some hirelings got paid in treasure shares, some henchmen were on retainer. We were nothing if not sloppy.)
He is very talented. Once again, this is the kind of stuff I wish I could do myself. I suspect I'd get more projects completed if I had skills other than just writing.
I have been looking at the replies with great interest and am already taking steps toward dealing with some of the issues I raised. I'll write an update later this week.
I am curious, though: how large must a dungeon be to classify as “mega”? Urheim looks large but not like the D1-3 underworld or the megadungeons of Tékumel that span an entire city and extend to the domains of the Ssú and are interconnected via the tubeways. I wonder how the ecology of Urheim could support much animal/monster life unless there are surface connections the cross section doesn’t show.
That's a good question. For me, a megadungeon is a dungeon that's not intended to be cleared. It's not a lair of some singular Big Monster on the bottom level, but rather something that can form the basis for a whole campaign. The "mega" isn't primarily about size so much as its place within the campaign, if that makes sense.
Take a look at the solo Wizards Tomb map of 1975. It is tiny. But given the OD&D rules + the odds of wandering monsters (commonly things like 10-100 skeletons or something like that), the fact that a solo light-armor character could die (depending on level) from one single 6 out of 3d6...in the first round... of combat, no dungeon was intended to be cleared at that time.
This may be an apocryphal hallucination on my part, but the growth of the megadungeon came not from clearability, but explorability. Dave's players had wandered around the Outdoor Survival (or whatever wilderness) map and were familiar with Castle Blackmoor from as long back as before Braunstein. What was addictive was poking their noses around the creepy basement.
Dave added on to the dungeon, because dungeons were fun to explore. The megadungeon allowed players to choose their path, delve into the unknown, endlessly feed their addiction to the crawl, spending less time navigating the wilds (six hexes multidirectionally only on a good roll) and roleplaying with political factions.
To me, if the players want to try to "clear" my megadungeon, that's fine. Go for it. Whatever, in perfect darkness, causes you to listen at the next door.
Yeah, my notion of a megadungeon was something so vast a human couldn’t explore all of it. Something on the scale of Gormenghast or the real-life Priest’s Grotto or the world-spanning underworld in the 1990 “Barony” RPG by Better Games.
For a dungeon to be truly unclearable I would think that there must be outside reservoirs to restock it, like the temples in Tékumel and the provinces of the Ssú, or that it would be a frontier or interface between the surface world and some deep reserve or hinterland, like an infernal realm.
Retainers fell out of favor for me personally in the late 80s and it wasn't until my own player-resurrection about 15 years ago that I brought them back. I think that had something to do with the fact that in the early days we tended to have a high PC death or retirement rate: we simply tended toward slow progression, low-level play. We also ignored level-appropriately scaled adventures. We mixed Isle of Dread, Castle Amber and Dungeonland(!) in one campaign, Rahasia and Pharoah and homebrew diplomacy adventures, BattleSystem and Night's Dark Terror. Now, we didn't do that stuff a ton but that, combined with the fact that we would use pre-generated characters for long module strings, we almost always played the game with the assumption of retainers for torch and treasure bearing, as well as pools to replace unalived PCs quickly.
ReplyDeleteWe were actually more protective of some of our favored retainers than our own characters: (Dorf, Biff, Bamf, R.I.P.) and I think maybe one time that I can recall ever went through the rigamarole to resurrect a PC. Remember those Last Will and Testaments on the AD&D character sheets? We always listed our best retainer to take over everything. (We did not, however, distinguish between the henchmen and retainer NPCs. Some hirelings got paid in treasure shares, some henchmen were on retainer. We were nothing if not sloppy.)
What is more beautiful than the cross-section of a dungeon?
ReplyDeleteWell done, James!
While I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment, I cannot claim credit in this case. It was Rob Conley who is responsible for this cross-section.
DeleteWell done, Rob Conley!
DeleteHe is very talented. Once again, this is the kind of stuff I wish I could do myself. I suspect I'd get more projects completed if I had skills other than just writing.
DeleteIt didn't slow down Gary Gygax or Tom Moldvay. :)
DeleteYou don't have to do it all yourself. May I respectfully direct your attention to the Logjam replies? :)
I have been looking at the replies with great interest and am already taking steps toward dealing with some of the issues I raised. I'll write an update later this week.
DeleteGreat!
DeleteCommendations to Rob Conley!
DeleteI am curious, though: how large must a dungeon be to classify as “mega”? Urheim looks large but not like the D1-3 underworld or the megadungeons of Tékumel that span an entire city and extend to the domains of the Ssú and are interconnected via the tubeways. I wonder how the ecology of Urheim could support much animal/monster life unless there are surface connections the cross section doesn’t show.
That's a good question. For me, a megadungeon is a dungeon that's not intended to be cleared. It's not a lair of some singular Big Monster on the bottom level, but rather something that can form the basis for a whole campaign. The "mega" isn't primarily about size so much as its place within the campaign, if that makes sense.
DeleteThanks, that makes sense. But Urheim as pictured does seem small and isolated enough to be clearable.
DeleteThe cross-section isn't too scale, though it still might be clearable. I guess I'll find out.
DeleteTake a look at the solo Wizards Tomb map of 1975. It is tiny. But given the OD&D rules + the odds of wandering monsters (commonly things like 10-100 skeletons or something like that), the fact that a solo light-armor character could die (depending on level) from one single 6 out of 3d6...in the first round... of combat, no dungeon was intended to be cleared at that time.
DeleteThis may be an apocryphal hallucination on my part, but the growth of the megadungeon came not from clearability, but explorability. Dave's players had wandered around the Outdoor Survival (or whatever wilderness) map and were familiar with Castle Blackmoor from as long back as before Braunstein. What was addictive was poking their noses around the creepy basement.
Dave added on to the dungeon, because dungeons were fun to explore. The megadungeon allowed players to choose their path, delve into the unknown, endlessly feed their addiction to the crawl, spending less time navigating the wilds (six hexes multidirectionally only on a good roll) and roleplaying with political factions.
To me, if the players want to try to "clear" my megadungeon, that's fine. Go for it. Whatever, in perfect darkness, causes you to listen at the next door.
Yeah, my notion of a megadungeon was something so vast a human couldn’t explore all of it. Something on the scale of Gormenghast or the real-life Priest’s Grotto or the world-spanning underworld in the 1990 “Barony” RPG by Better Games.
DeleteFor a dungeon to be truly unclearable I would think that there must be outside reservoirs to restock it, like the temples in Tékumel and the provinces of the Ssú, or that it would be a frontier or interface between the surface world and some deep reserve or hinterland, like an infernal realm.