I can't quite recall when I first encountered the notion of the four elements. I suspect it was quite early, probably through my reading of classical mythological stories, though it's possible I learned about it from some other source. However, I vividly recall that, when I cracked open the Monster Manual for the first time in early 1980, I was almost instantly enamored of elementals. There was something powerfully, if you'll forgive the term, primal about beings composed solely of a single substance. Also, the existence of elementals and indeed the entire conception of the four elements served as a useful reminder that I wasn't in Kansas anymore. Dungeons & Dragons takes place in a pre-modern world, one not merely operating according to different laws than our own but one whose inhabitants conceive of it in a different way than we do ours.
Over the years, my interest in the elements and elementals has endured. I remember when I first read about other elemental systems, like those of the great civilizations of Asia. What particularly struck me about the latter was that many of them included a fifth element, a concept not unknown in ancient and medieval European thought but less well known in popular presentations of them. I was likewise struck by the fact that many of these non-European elemental systems included different elements, like wood or metal. As a younger person, this was eye-opening and helped me to realize that there was room for variation within the broader notion of fundamental elements.
Lately, I've been working on a science fantasy setting rooted in Burroughs, Kirby, Wolfe, Zothique, and The Dying Earth – a formerly high-tech setting brought low to the point it appears to be a weird and/or exotic fantasy world. Think Jorune or Tékumel but more immediately accessible than either. As I began to work in earnest, one of my earliest thoughts was its elemental system, which I wanted to be unique and interesting but also intelligible. The result of my cogitations is depicted in the crude image above. While I need to give it some additional thought, I'm quite pleased with the results, especially the way it interacts with the psychic powers and sorcery of the setting. If nothing else, it's different from the usual fantasy presentation of the elements and their relationships, which pleases me.
That's a really interesting pentad, particularly the relationship arrows. Void coalescing into matter is particularly unusual IME, a more traditional view would be the opposite, right? Entropy and all. Or is this a "nature abhors a vacuum" thing?
ReplyDeleteMind seem like kind of the odd man out, but maybe I'm mis-interpreting what "comprehends" and "perceives" mean in context. Maybe "perceives" might be "defines" instead? Without a sentience to establish the passage of time the other four elements become an accelerating cycle that leads to collapse or something?
"Perceives" is indeed intended to mean "defines" and you've more or less hit upon the exact relationship with mind (sentience).
DeleteWell, it's nice to know we're good for something in a cosmological sense. If "mind" wasn't contributing we might as well give up and become something more successful. Some kind of beetle, maybe. They seem to be doing pretty well for what might as well be biological robots. :)
DeleteAvalon Hill had a board game called Dark Emperor (designed by our pal Costikyan, and showing his quirky touch) where the four traditional elements (earth-air-fire-water) were supplemented with metal (born of fire + earth) and wood (born of water + earth), which I thought was an unusual touch. Each element was a school of magic with unique spells, and there were also Life and Death schools.
ReplyDeleteAlways bugged me that there weren't other "offspring" elements, although I'm not sure what the different combos would be associated with magically. Water + fire for steampunk magic? Air + earth for sand/dust spells? Water + earth for mud/erosion? Air + water for clouds and weather?
The game also had a really weird map composed entirely of circular seas surrounded by interconnecting arcs of dry land, the remnants of a massive meteor bombardment ages ago. Like I said, quirky in a lot of ways, as I expect from Greg's work.
I remember that game but never owned it. At the time, seeing only its cover, I assumed it tied to Elric in some way.
DeleteI owned it, but I had trouble figuring out how it was meant to be played. I don't know if the problem was the rules or me; if I could find an affordable copy of the game, I might give it another try.
DeleteReasonable assumption, but that's the titular "Dark Emperor" - some big bad necromancer who's come back from the Plane of the Dead (where he was banished centuries ago) with an army of vampires. It was a clunky game to play but had some unusual mechanical twists (like every mortal unit having an undead version on the flip side) and some of the same kind of "background flavor" that seeps through in Dragon Pass or Divine Right or Revolt on Antares and makes them so memorable.
DeleteLooking at the BGG writeup, apparently there were also "Terror" and "Serenity" runes/elements that opposed one another, as did Metal and Wood. So I guess maybe it was more the "dualistic opposition model" of mystic elements than "offspring/hybrid" like I thought. Been too long since I owned that game, getting fuzzy.
@John Brinegar You should take a look at the BGG listing for the game. Aside from general discussion in the comments (mostly not very favorable) there's a file with some rules variants from a General article and some homebrew stuff by fans including a map variant and nicer counters. Plus there's always someone trying to sell or trade over there if you really wanted to give it another try.
DeleteI like this; it seems like it would produce some interesting social constructs. "Void generates Matter"makes sense as creation ex nihilo, though without an obvious creator; perhaps "Mind comprehends Void" provides the creative spark? (The comprehending leads to the generation.) And perhaps the Energy that Void dissipates gets recycled into Matter? "Matter impedes Mind" seems rather Gnostic, or perhaps Neoplatonic.
ReplyDeleteAt first look I thought this was gonna be a post about the Immortals Rules boxed set, but that's Matter, Energy, Time, Thought & Entropy. Still seems like some overlapping ground! I think about that weird little box from time to time; I don't know anyone whose ever actually tried out those rules.
ReplyDeleteIt's quite possible I was sub-consciously influenced by that set, which I owned, read once, and never even attempted to use.
DeleteI actually played Immortals for about six months as part of a small (four player) group back in the day. We "cheated" by just making starting Immortals, since none of us had ever had a PC anywhere near close to the proper level. I don't recall it being particularly interesting, but the concept appealed to us enough that we gave "deity level" play another shot with 2nd edition D&D and the Primal Order books from WotC a few years later on. That didn't last either.
DeleteI suspect really enjoying god-tier games requires you to actually get a character there "honestly" by levelling up, which is a lifetime's work in some systems. Without that I just felt like I wasn't sufficiently invested in my PC or the game to keep going.
Of course, there are some games built for playing gods, or at least demigods, from word one. White Wolf's Scion, for ex, or Part-Time Gods. Different kettle of fish, though.
If you like messing around with elements as much as I do, I made an elements generator a while back!
ReplyDeletehttps://weirdwonderfulworlds.blogspot.com/2020/07/element-generator.html
I actually talk about elements and elemental systems a fair bit on my blog, it blows my mind that more people don't mess around with elements.
Some neat ideas over there. Added to the "read" list.
DeleteThe "worlds lacking an element" concept reminds me a bit of Spelljammer, where many "planets" were elemental bodies composed almost entirely of a single element, sometimes "filling in" for the niches the rest would occupy in various ways. Stars were Fire bodies, waterworlds were literally that, sometimes with frozen shells, "gas giant" cognates were Air bodies made of various gasses, etc.
Thanks! I've read a bit of Spelljammer but wasn't aware of that, that sounds really cool.
DeleteI wrote another post about my take on the positive and negative plane, and somebody once compared it to Planescape, which I also only know a little about. It's funny how these ideas tend to converge.
https://weirdwonderfulworlds.blogspot.com/2020/06/concept-positive-and-negative-planes.html
mildly OT, and please remember I say this with love: Isn't it better to provide more support for a single setting/campaign that to constantly be starting underdeveloped new ideas?
ReplyDeleteAlmost certainly! But I get bored and like to tinker with new ideas.
DeleteOne of my local DMs is the exact same way. I think I played the same character twice in the same game with of his only one time, of the many, many times I've played his games.
DeleteAnd yet, I still go back, and gladly. He's a good man.
As are you.
You're too kind, Will. Thank you.
DeletePuts me in mind of the magic system from White Wolf's Mage.
ReplyDeleteLooking at that diagram, I can't help but wonder why people thought roleplayers were Satanists. :)
ReplyDeleteIt's the d12s that really give us away. Pentagrams everywhere! :)
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