A couple of sessions ago, as the characters prepared to infiltrate Baranów Sandomierski Castle, I finally reached the limit of my patience with the VTT. I won't waste time with a summary of all the issues I encountered during that session. I will only say that they were sufficient that I seriously considered abandoning the campaign entirely. Before I took such a rash step, however, I spoke to my players about my frustrations and discovered that they largely felt similarly about the situation. Since everyone was enjoying the campaign, we simply decided to abandon the use of the VTT for future sessions, opting instead for simple sketch maps on a Jamboard rather than anything more elaborate (this is what I've done in my House of Worms campaign for years now).
I know that many people, even people as ancient as myself, regularly make use of virtual tabletops with great success and that their enjoyment of games is greatly enhanced by them. I'm sincerely happy for such people. For myself, though, the opposite has largely been the case. Over the years that I've played online, I have never found an elaborate VTT to offer any significant benefit beyond the storage of character sheets and as a dice roller in games that use funky dice (as Twilight: 2000's current edition does). Most of the time, the VTT worked against my enjoyment of play, in large part because of how arcane they were to operate.
I certainly understand the theoretical appeal of a virtual tabletop. As its name suggests, it's an attempt to emulate the look and feel of playing in person while seated around a common table. As I've said repeatedly on this blog over the years, playing in person is the ideal way to play a roleplaying game and, until the last decade or so, I never even considered playing any other way. That's why I'm sympathetic to the intention behind VTTs and why, in my naivete, I have attempted to make use of them in my online games. None, in my experience anyway, have come close to bringing an online game any closer to being an in person game. If anything, what they have done is make it all the more plain that I am not playing a game face-to-face. They've made it all feel like a clunky, analog video game and what's the point in that?
I've often commented that one of the few unalloyed goods that the Internet has given us is the ability to connect with people all over the globe who share our interests. I've made many wonderful friends over the years because of the Internet, most of whom I'd never have met otherwise. I'm deeply grateful for that. Yet, even as Internet technology has improved, it has still not improved enough that I feel as if a virtual tabletop is a good option for playing a RPG with friends. If refereeing the House of Worms campaign over the last eight years has taught me anything – and it's taught me a lot – it's that simple is best. The online experience can never replicate, let alone replace, being there in the flesh, rolling actual dice with your friends, of course, but the fewer layers of mediation between you and your friends, the closer you come to it. That's why I'm giving up on the Foundry for Barrett's Raiders and going as bare bones as possible. In retrospect, that's probably what I should have done from the beginning.
I use Roll20 to run a Troika campaign. The best thing about it is the programmed character sheet some wonderful person made, which automates a lot of Troika's rules --- less risk of me forgetting how something is supposed to work. The next best thing is being able to share art (I make AI art of NPCs and rooms for fun, and share module art if it's good). And occasionally it's good to just put a map up and use the fog of war feature to unmask it a bit at a time.
ReplyDeleteBut our game is mostly theater of the mind. I'd never want to use a full crunchy VTT where you program every NPC or monster with all its stats --- that's not fun for me, and PC RPGs will always do it better.
Same experience with Bushido. Not using a VTT anymore at all.
ReplyDeleteAny chance you're recruiting?
DeleteWe have a couple Bushido play by posts on Unseen Servant: https://www.unseenservant.us/forum/index.php both I think could be open to more players.
DeleteInteresting. I think WOTC is about the abandon the tabletop and just go virtual with their next D&D iteration with just token physical books produced. This is going to split the hobby and cause some debate over what an RPG is, like 4e did, but even deeper.
ReplyDeleteI feel and share your frustration James. I have largely abandoned the use of a VTT for my online games. I found that having to focus so much of my attention on *using* the VTT actually hindered me doing what I do best as a DM - improvise, play the NPCs, and run the game in the moment. I am, however, currently attempting to use Roll20 solely for "fog of war" dungeon mapping because I'm running a megadungeon, so we'll see how that goes!
ReplyDeleteWhat wrote about spending too much time focusing on using the VTT is precisely what I have experienced.
DeleteToo much time using time VTT can definitely be a problem. For me the trick is to try and upload and set up maps out of session (which of course doesn't happen as much as it should) and be pretty limited in the features I use. Fog of war is really nice and I'm pretty good at quickly uncovering areas. Actually, I might not spend that much more time with maps than I used to with a vinyl hex mat in the old days.
DeleteI've never used a VTT as a GM, and found them intensely obtrusive and awkward as a player on the few occasions I've used one. Admittedly, that was years ago and the tech has presumably improved. OTOH, I watch (or at least listen to while painting) a fair number of RPG session videos when I'm curious about a rule system, and nothing I've seen suggests other people find them much easier to work with in practice. Some massively edited productions manage to make the VTT look slicker than they really are, but more raw vids show that they get in teh way far more than I'm comfortable with.
ReplyDeleteThen again, I honestly question whether I want to do any roleplaying except face to face. COVID's worst days are past, and filtering through machines is just not good to me for what's ultimately supposed to be a social pastime.
I have been using Roll20 to run RuneQuest and Cold Iron, both with hex grid play (not necessarily strict). A HUGE benefit I have seen is using huge maps as far as number of hexes. I have scanned a village map and a section of a city map, and overlaid them with 1 meter hexes. The maps were 8.5"x11" maps, and represented with 1" hexes would be larger than any table I've ever played on. I've also done drawn maps with a large number of hexes, which allows for several rounds of full movement and thus long range encounters. I have scanned dungeon and adventure site maps, then used Fog of War to hide stuff from the players to be revealed as they explore. And then when a fight breaks out, the exploration map is also the battle map.
ReplyDeleteThis has all been done with relatively little effort to learn features of Roll20.
I use Roll20 for my Star Wars d6 game. It's handy because a few players are in other countries, and it's easy to pull up pictures of unusual aliens, ships, droids, etc. And it's possible to have exploding wild dice coded in the die roller. But we use Discord for voice, and often theater of the mind on Discord is enough until we need a die roll.
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to have moved my D&D game back to face-to-face.
I have been using one for a few years now (first roll20 then foundry) and I have been similarly dissatisfied for a long time. I miss when I used to use Twiddla instead, but it requires a subscription now and while Forge/Foundry does too, Twiddla's is almost double the price for just a white board with a grid. I'm not really sure what to do at this point.
ReplyDeleteI used Roll 20 with Zoom and then Discord until we started playing face to face again. I really like rolling in the open, and shared experience for the players to see each other rolls, and having a convenient place to put maps is also nice. But it can be so time consuming and as others have noted makes you focus on presentation that isn't necessarily making the game better.
ReplyDeleteWhy do people use a die roller? We play together sometimes and sometimes remotely over Skype and we always roll real dice.
ReplyDeleteI use a mix, usually I roll real dice, and some of my players do. But having the dice roll visible to all in the dice roller does have some advantages.
DeleteCan i suggest owlbear.rodeo? It"s free, system agnostic and very simple. Barely more than a dice roller and shared map with counters.
ReplyDelete"a dice roller and shared map with counters" Heh, that's most of my Roll20 games!
DeleteI feel the same as a DM...it is too much effort, rather than making life easier I find VTTs add complexity and workload especially the ones with more bells and whistles. Owlbear Rodeo is about as complicated as I want to get.
ReplyDeleteI've found Owlbear Rodeo perfect for my needs. Share a map with players, blank out unexplored areas, and move tokens around on top. Nothing more to it than that.
ReplyDeleteI like Roll20, but I turn off most of the functionality. It's important to only use what enhances your game, and avoid what detracts. I find players never object to not having a pretty map - what matters is the scene in their head.
ReplyDeleteFor over 2 years (campaign has been suspended 2 months ago) I have used:
ReplyDeleteDiscord+one of its dice roller + maps managed on Miro (https://miro.com/aq/ps/online-whiteboard-1/)
Miro is basically a shared, large Powerpoint online clone.
You can just create a blank space for each campaign, or session, or map. And share it as a link, which can be defined as read-only or with editing privileges, and the players only need a browser to use it.
Fog of War was a bit cumbersome (you have to either play with layers or put opaque rectangles all over the place, removing each as soon as someone enters the area).
If/when I start playing again I will definitely try out https://blog.owlbear.rodeo/ which looks slightly easier to handle while still lighter than Roll20 or Foundry).
i look back with an ironic "I told you so!" perspective on VTTs. I was involved in a multiuser internet VR startup in the 90s that used VRML. After we had hammered out the basic product, we were tasked with coming up with 2.0 applications - realizing that VRML would never compete with videogame graphics, I proposed that we create a gameroom with a mapping table, virtual polyhedral dice and the ability of players to sit around the table appearing with their avatars as their characters, and being able to see themselves as miniatures on the table! Nobody understood the appeal at all...
ReplyDelete