I'm on record as disliking the general approach to religion and gods Dungeons & Dragons has taken since the beginning. I've always found it weirdly reductive and, for lack of a better word, "game-y." Certainly, I can understand that a more nuanced and complex approach probably wouldn't have sold many books, but I still can't help but think D&D deserved better than what we got in Deities & Demigods. I suspect this is a minority opinion, but it's not one without precedent in the annals of the hobby.
With this as background, I think you can easily guess my reaction to Gary Gygax's "From the Sorcerer's Scroll" column from issue #97 of Dragon (March 1985). Entitled "Deities and Their Faithful," it's very close to the Platonic ideal of what I don't want in a discussion of the gods in the context of fantasy roleplaying games. In it, Gygax introduces a new set of game mechanics intended to quantify a deity's power on a particular plane of existence, as well as provide some (very rough) guidelines on divine favor and disfavor. Even taken as an example of Gygax "thinking out loud," the article is a mess.
Gygax begins by stating gods' power "comes from those who believe in them." He suggests this idea is not a new one, having been "put forth often by others, whether seriously or as a device for literature." I cannot be certain this is the first time this idea appears in connection with D&D, but, even if it's not, having Gygax's name associated with it lends it a great deal of weight. I do know that, by the time the Planescape campaign setting was released almost a decade later, this line of thinking was uncontroversial, even commonplace. I think it's fine in certain contexts, though it's still a weirdly rationalist approach to the subject of belief.
In any case, Gygax proposes that a god's hit points derive from the number of his believers at a ratio of 1:1000. That is, for every 1000 believers, the god has 1hp on a certain plane. Thus, a god with 400hp must have 400,000 believers. Further, a god's "power points" – a new concept for "the stuff from which all deities of the same alignment draw to use their spell-like powers, issue and enforce commands, and perform other abilities they may have" – has the same ratio but only for believers of the same alignment. Thus, a Lawful Neutral believer of a Lawful Good god contributes only to the god's hit points, not his power points. Gygax adds that level/hit dice also plays a role here. A believer of 2nd level is worth twice as much as one of only 1st level, while one of 3rd level is worth three times as much, and so on. Clerics (and only clerics) are worth twice as much on top of everything else, so, for example, a 15th-level cleric is worth 30 points.
The article doesn't go into any detail about the nature of power points, so it's a very abstract way of quantifying a given deity's power. However, Gygax does note that, since gods derive power from believers of the same alignment, this is the reason alignment is so important – and why the gods look with disfavor on those who change alignment, since it literally takes power away from them. I can see how this sort of metaphysical set-up might have interesting consequences in certain kinds of settings, but I'm not sure it's a good model for most, where the relationship between gods and mortals isn't so nakedly mechanistic.

I don’t jibe with Gygax’s slant on alignment of worshippers if only because the ocean is horrifying and so too sea gods must be, but sailors aren’t all vicious. A lot of their worship is driven by fear instead of a desire to match the capricious malevolence of a monsoon or the jealous grasp on treasures that the ocean floor possesses.
ReplyDeleteI've always loved Deities and Demigods, but my gaming experience might be unusual. I was in high school when it came out, and my gaming group was older than me. It never dawned on us to fight the gods. If anything, their stats were pretty fearsome compared to our PCs who never got much above 6th level if I remember correctly.
ReplyDeleteReligion wasn't a big cultural factor to us dungeon-crawling adventurers. And it was cool to see the stats of such giants in the earth as Heracles, Elric and King Arthur.
Finally, the art in that book includes some of the best work of Otus, Dee and Roslof during their entire tenure at TSR, and that's saying a lot!
Detites & Demigods never held much appeal for me and what little detail it provided seemed to get used for silly middle school D&D hijinx. Like pitting gods against each other in battle using their stat lines or *shudder* pitting high level PCs vs Gods.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast the late 90s AD&D 2nd Forgotten Realm’s divine sourcebooks: Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities were in my opinion the best religion centric sourcebooks TSR ever produced. They don’t just give you gods as stat blocks but frames religions through; doctrine, holy days, food and other taboos, sects, internal politics, priestly vestments and obligation. Breathing verisimilitude in the realms. This plausibility is missing from most divinely themed D&D material. I have long wished that Greyhawk’s religions were given the Faith’s & Avatars treatment.
I wonder if the article ever brings up the % chance of clerics getting spells. I've wondered about that since I first saw the Necklace of Prayer Beads with its 25% boost for chance of getting spells. I've never found anything about clerics having a % chance of getting spells (except for very subpar clerics who have penalties). Does that come up in this article?
ReplyDeleteI find Judges Guild's official D&D supplement, The Unknown Gods, to be the most usable deities book ever printed. It is 100% about encountering and perhaps fighting these down-to-earth deities. (Using the terminology of the advanced D&D Deities & Demigods Cyclopedia, all 83 of the Unknown Gods would be rather weak demi-gods.) If you can't put a god in a dungeon for the PCs to encounter and slay, then what's a D&D god for?
ReplyDeleteGranting spells to PC clerics? Serving as the rationale for - or possibly the head of - religions that affect the campaign profoundly? Showing up to save the day when a PC makes a deity call? Zapping PC followers that transgress? Giving religious PCs some roleplaying hooks?
DeleteWhat did I do with the mechanics in this article IMC? Nothing.
ReplyDeleteI think that I first came upon the idea that the power of gods depended on the faith of their followers in "Quag Keep" - before I ever played D&D.
IMC, many (not all) gods do draw power from their followers. Other supernaturals (demon lords, archdevils, etc.) can't, and that has an effect on how these beings behave. Even evil gods don't want to lose too many worshippers, but demon lords and the like don't care.
But I don't need mechanics for any of this.
Oddly, my thoughts on gods in D&D have drifted back toward Deities and Demigods (or Gods, Demigods, and Heroes). Treating deities as entities with whom a character develops a relationship rather than as a power source for the daily allotment of spells, perhaps using old Dragon articles about pacts with demons as a model, might be a better approach than the Cleric class anyway. To keep the Cleric in the game, another approach is needed, which I am lately modeling on another Dragon article, "Elemental Gods" by Nonie Quinlan in Dragon #77. So, I am approaching things with two or more categories of "gods", each approached by characters in a distinct manner.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, this article was one of Gygax's worst. I liked it when it came out, but considering it over the years I have come to have a deep distaste for the premises it explores. It implies, for example, that Tharizdun, having a small, secretive cult rather than institutional, sanctioned religions would be barely an inconvenience to the other gods of the World of Greyhawk, which is surely not the intent. The idea of Tharizdun having just 1 or 2 hit points is ludicrous, but who could envision that cult having more than a couple thousand worshipers at the most? And if it did have more, how could that cult keep itself secret, as the story requires it is? Sure, someone might come up with some convoluted justification showing why Tharizdun is an exception to the "1 hit point per thousand worshipers" rule, but that just shows that the rule doesn't work for the type of fiction involved.
The Mentzer Immortals rules put the lie to Gygaxian Gods, at least in BECMI canon law.
ReplyDeleteDeitiies and Demigods was very nearly useless to us, almost immediately. I think it was the least-owned product of my initial group (two copies, I think) and I recall us passing it around and talking about Orcus once.
ReplyDeleteIt just wasn't how we "deitied" D&D. After all, the most active god - creator, helpmeet, and judge - in the game was the Dungeon Master. All supernatural interactions were conceived and adjudicated by and through him.
So, if the pseudoviking fighter PC had a run-in with Thor, it wasn't to fight! The DM held all the cards, he presented the God of Thunder as he saw him fitting into the campaign. Yes, on occasion, any of the DMs would resort to the oracular nature of the dice to get a sense of the deity's will or benevolence or punishment on occasion, but most of the time, the DM simply exercised his own inherent godlike power to simply decide and then replicate what that god would do.
D&D veered from undermechanization to overmechanization, back and forth, back and forth. The "Statted Up Gods" is the Lucille Ball's chocolate factory of overmechanization.
Awesome cover, though... 😀
ReplyDeleteBoy, this makes you feel bad for Issek of the Jug... He really was going through a rough patch. (Also, you can go to Robin Wood's site and buy a print of that cover right now, if you want to!)
ReplyDeleteGygax begins by stating gods' power "comes from those who believe in them." He suggests this idea is not a new one, having been "put forth often by others, whether seriously or as a device for literature."
ReplyDeleteI don’t know about D&D per se, but this was the organizing principle of “Fantasy Wargaming”. Another precedent is “The Broken Sword”: the old Greco-Roman deities have sunk to depths where they have been wiped out, Manannán mac Lir comments that in the past he was a god (and then would have been less afraid to venture into Jotunheim), and the Norse gods are still worshipped but on their way out, being supplanted by the Christian deity and his foe, the former seeming distant but well-nigh omnipotent. Even though the novel wasn’t cited, Fantasy Wargaming seems almost designed for this novel’s setting.
In any case, this concept wasn’t new, as Gygax noted.
"this was the organizing principle of “Fantasy Wargaming”."
DeleteKinda, but not really. It's one way spirits gained mana, but not really a determinant of how powerful they were. Sort of. It's a set of thoughts that wasn't very well developed - the authors did, after all, talk about how fairies got smaller as they got less mana, and there was the whole "their power comes from your belief" line, but the relative power of the Trinity and the Norse gods, to pick the main operating example, or even Satan and Odin, wasn't determined by how much mana people sent them through worship.
THEIR POWER COMES FROM YOUR BELIEF; THE GREATEST SOURCE OF MANA IS YOURSELF.
DeleteIt is the person's worship of gods that gives them their power.
The capitalization is that of the authors. Furthermore, in their work on a second volume focusing on the Ancient World, there is a handwritten page describing just this:
Their power depends on worship; where worship diminishes or ceases, so they shrink to an Unknown God/Tutelary or Local Deity / Sprite or Imp, or vanish entirely.
This sentence is part of an introduction to rules for a "Fadeaway factor" affecting appeals to the deity, both in whether they will be granted and in their execution. This factor depends on the place and time (relative to their "normal" area/date of worship), and the number of worshippers.