Today, though, I want to return to my Reconsiderations series, since the first entry in it was very well received and generated a lot of good comments. My apologies for not responding to most of them, but, well, I've already explained that my attention was – and remains – elsewhere.
Longtime readers may recall that the Dwimmermount campaign was predicated on several things, the most important of which was that it explicitly megadungeon-centric. At the time, which is to say the early days of the Old School Renaissance, there was a widespread belief that Dungeons & Dragons was born in the megadungeon – or the "campaign dungeon," as some preferred to call it – and that any attempt to play, let alone understand, old school D&D, as we were all attempting to do, required that you run a megadungeon campaign. And so I did, because I hoped that doing so would help me better understand aspects of D&D's history and design that had eluded me when I was a callow youth.
Another important foundation of the Dwimmermount campaign – and indeed my entire philosophy of coming to grips with OD&D – was the principle that "D&D is always right." By that, I simply meant that, despite the claims of its detractors over the decades, D&D's design was not haphazard but intentional. What's there in its rulebooks is there for a reason and we'd do well to understand this before tinkering with them unduly. This is not the same thing as saying that everything that's in D&D's rules always works to our satisfaction (or even the satisfaction of its designers), only that, before casting aside something about the game you don't like, consider for a moment the possibility that that something might, in fact, be a load-bearing wall.
That's why, during that campaign, I permitted the use of the spell raise dead, even though I was philosophically opposed to it. When I say "philosophically opposed," I mean that I initially accepted the idea, common in the early OSR, that old school Dungeons & Dragons was inherently and unalterably high lethality, with characters dying left and right. "Fantasy fucking Vietnam" was how it was sometimes described. Likewise, the renewed emphasis on pulp fantasy – strongly championed on this blog – was seen as requiring a style of play in which death was both omnipresent and permanent.
Consequently, I wanted to embrace this ethos in the Dwimmermount campaign, but doing so contradicted "D&D is always right," so I, with some reluctance, allowed the use of raise dead. I vividly remember that there was some disappointment, among my readers that I'd "caved" on this point, since I'd previously written about my discomfort with the spell and how I felt it ran counter to the "mood" I was trying to bring to the Dwimmermount campaign. Even so, I permitted it, because the rules did and, as I already said repeatedly, I wanted wrestle with OD&D on its own terms – and, from the beginning, Dungeons & Dragons has had a spell that enabled the restoration of characters to life.
I adopted a similar mindsight when I refereeing my decade-plus Empire of the Petal Throne campaign, House of Worms. Because its underlying rules so closely mirror those of OD&D, EPT also includes several means to bring back the dead, including a spell accessible to player characters. During the course of the campaign, only one player character ever died – Aíthfo hiZnáyu – but he did so twice, which is certainly an unusual distinction! I permitted it, because the rules allowed it and also because the other players, knowing this, chose to make an effort to resurrect Aíthfo, in the process creating some very memorable adventures in Tékumel.
Still, I remained somewhat sheepish about all of this. My innate sense of consistency ensured I'd try to play by the principle ("D&D is always right") I'd laid down at the start of the Dwimmermount campaign, but I did so through gritted teeth. On some level, I shared the disappointment of readers who felt I'd "wimped out" by allowing the use of raise dead. Dwimmermount was, as I've noted, born out of my love of pulp fantasy of a particular kind that did not include easy resurrection in this fashion. Was I betraying its inspirations by being so casual about its use? At the time, I thought so. Even a few years ago, I groused about my decision.


can you elaborate what do you think was gained game-wise with your decision to keep raise dead?
ReplyDeleteOld school play, at least as it's become popularly understood, engenders a certain fear and even paranoia in many players. They worry that every chest and door could be trapped and every monster possessed of some unexpectedly lethal attack. Even though this was never true (now or in the past), it's not part of the old school ethos for many players, often to the point of absurdity.
DeleteRaise dead and other means to overcome death and debilitating effects thus serve as a "safety net." Players are more likely to take risks and generally behave in an adventuresome fashion when they know that one bad decision or one bad roll isn't the end of their character.
I know a lot of old school fans hate this approach and feel it's somehow "weak" or "childish," but I've never really shared that perspective.
A similar problem exists with one of my favorite games (or at least it did back when I was actively running it): Call of C'thulhu.
DeleteThe hype was your character would die or go insane by the end of the third session. People believed the hype. Thus they did not connect with a character. They did not invest in a character. And in extreme examples, they made "joke" characters to minimize even any remote appearance of valuing the game or the character.
*That* is the impact of injecting too much realism into a game that requires at least some nodding acceptance of main character tropes.
- M
Yes, I have seen that dynamic in D&D and other games. It's a strange phenomenon.
DeleteI think Raise Dead should require dutiful devotion to a diety (and massive donations) long before it's actually required. Also it should be a big deal ritual at the temple and not some spell fired off in the field. So you have to get the body back in a certain amount of time and they have to be donating and sticking to their alignment or no dice.
ReplyDeleteI have two issues with raise dead, one theoretical, one practical.
ReplyDeletetheory, how do you change kings? death is always a good way for, at the least, the next in line to start lining. without it, a bad king could cling on forever. a baddie could just snip off a finger, and be restored by a loyal minion when he is blasted. you need finality,
and practical. Raise dead, etc was supposed to be expensive, rare, etc. but players love their level 2 moron as much as they do their level 17 lord, and so want to bring him back just as much. and the party feels obligated ("we would want Jim to do it for us!") which wastes time.
I play DCC these days, and because of schedules, we never get past the funnels, where you do not even get unconscious, or death saves, etc. and it is great. players accept it, and away we go, with Tim, Him, Bim, Grim, etc as the dice decide.
I've never seen the spells as a way to cheat a natural death through ageing.The practicalities are that you still need someone who wants to cast raise dead on your behalf.
DeleteRaise dead doesn't bring you back when you exceed your maximum age (in AD&D 1E, at least). It can't bring you back if the body is lost, destroyed, or seriously incomplete.
DeleteGiven the level of violence in campaigns, how many regimes changes are due to dear old dad getting to 100?
DeleteI would argue that "omnipresent and permanent" death is not actually particularly characteristic of the pulp fantasy genre, at least with regards to the protagonists. They often have bold and harrowing scrapes with death, but never simply die from a stray arrow shot.
ReplyDeleteDungeon Crawl Classics RPG (which explicitly strives to emulate the pulp fantasy literature that inspired D&D) makes very effective use of a Luck statistic that can be spent to increase a die roll (e.g., a vitally important saving throw). This allows the game to be ostensibly high lethality but puts some control in the players' hands for enabling the kind of narrow escapes that the genre is full of. I'm normally not a big fan of "metacurrencies" but in this game it works exceptionally well, I believe.
DCC RPG also does not have a raise dead spell because it doesn't want resurrection to be a mundane transaction ("OK, who's paying the 2,500 gp for the rez at the church this time?") but it explicitly tells you that it's fine to make such potent magic available as part of a quest. And one of the early DCC RPG adventure modules was written as an illustration of this idea; the adventure is a journey into the underworld to try to win back a deceased companion from Death himself.
"That's not a unique sin; I'm as guilty of it as anyone. However, with the benefit of some distance, I've come to realize that many common complaints about D&D (or any roleplaying game) come from a failure in looking at the game design as a whole and instead fixating on only some of its parts. Is save-or-die really unfair? In a game where there are innumerable means of returning a character to life, I don't think so. In most cases, death in Dungeons & Dragons is just a setback and the rules provide a myriad of means by which to overcome it. Why not accept that?"
ReplyDeleteWell put.
I remember playing when I was nine years old. Hear me out. We learned to play in daycare; one of the providers was an older guy who took us under our wing and helped us puzzle out the Moldvay basic set, eventually becoming the group's DM.
ReplyDeleteSo there we were, first level noobs, deep in the bowels of a dungeon. Through misadventure, poor planning (did I mention we were preteens), and bad dice rolls, we had a near TPK. The two remaining survivors, low on hit points and rations, had dragged the bodies into a small room and barred the doors. All seemed lost, until one of the PCs noticed a small ring half buried in the dirt floor.
Through various tests and intuitions, and a *lot* of hinting from the DM (we were in daycare, dammit!), we determined that it was a ring of wishes with one wish left.
With careful consideration, and a lot of caution, the ring finder carefully worded a wish that brought the rest of the party to life and at full health. A cheer went up! We were back, baby, and ready to kick some goblin butt! (I've been chasing that high ever since.)
Isn't it amazing that the DM "randomly" rolled for treasure, and just randomly landed on one of the few things that could have saved the game for us? A few judicious miracles can sometimes make the difference.
I don't see anything unusual about playing D&D at that age, especially if it was back in the 1970s. Daycare's the odd part to me. I mostly played either with school friends at one of our homes, or at a semi-local community center that had weekly "wargame nights" including several tables of D&D, one of which was explicitly a "kids' table" run by an adult volunteer GM. Proving yourself to be tolerable enough to move up to one of the other tables was something of a rite of passage.
DeleteOTOH, my parents never thought enough about me or my sibling to even think of daycare as an option. We were latchkey kids before that was really a thing.
As someone who most often plays the BX version of D&D I can safely say that the repercussions of raise dead and reincarnation were never something I ever worried about. As per the Monster section, the highest level human characters are 3HD (third level fighters). As such, if PCs wanted to have access to those kinds of spells, they had to go on a grand quest to find someone/something to accomplish it. When they did, it was usually a highlight of the campaign.
ReplyDelete"Likewise, the renewed emphasis on pulp fantasy – strongly championed on this blog – was seen as requiring a style of play in which death was both omnipresent and permanent."
ReplyDeleteHow often did pulp writers actually kill off their heroes? Death was omnipresent for NPCs. With maybe an exception or two, I'm not sure it's accurate to say it was omnipresent for main characters.
You're correct, of course. The point I was trying to make was that characters died in pulp fantasy stories fairly often – many of Conan's supporting cast did not survive, for example – and that seeing that inspired a lot of us in the OSR to look for ways to present the game as being more lethal. It's a slightly distorted view of the source material, to be sure, but that's part of the origin of this shift in emphasis.
DeleteI agree, and I was on that bandwagon for a while myself. But I think OSR purism has dropped in popularity and influence because it effectively removes large chunks of the game. If your characters don't survive until they have access to resurrection, or if resurrection is not available at some point, the mid- to high-level game disappears, along with the domain game and any use of the planes as part of your setting. Games end up being one-shots, and you miss out of campaigns.
DeletePCs in pre-Unearthed Arcana D&D are pretty fragile at the lower levels, and I've had to scale down the lethality in some of my games to make sure at least some of them progress enough to be more durable. The fact is, players become invested in their characters long before they are high enough level to access resurrection. Later editions react to this by making low level PCs more durable, but I think the chargen rules in the Unearthed Arcana show that Gygax identified this as a problem in his home games, and felt a need to address it, during the 1e era.
In high school, I ran an AD&D campaign up to double digit levels with almost no character death (and then almost always a wish or raise dead was available). At some point, all my players made sure some portion of their body (like a nail clipping or something) was safe in town for resurrection purposes. Oh, I do also recall at least one reincarnation.
DeleteThere was some fudging, but not to crazy levels.
That's not my recollection at all: character deaths, including total massacres, do not end campaigns today, and they did not in 1982. The campaign was bigger than the PC and bigger than the Party. So, when a PC died the player usually rolled up a player equal to the level of the lowest surviving character, retained the PC's game knowledge built up to that point, and moved forward with the campaign.
DeleteTPK's were similar, but the "replacements" were an all new party of 1st levels, either who had come accross the dead party or whose mission was to recover something from the bodies. Our first Ravenloft was a TPK, in fact, and that was not only not the end of the campaign, it wasn't even technically the end of the PCs!
The access to and limitations of death workarounds is actually remarkably balanced.
My general stance is you can do a lot of damage to D&D as a game if you push too hard story or simulation. That by the time the characters reach the level where 9th level clerics are in reach for Raise Dead, which is likely 4th level or so, they will be deeply attached to the PCs. The ability to bring them back from mishap is good game design. Reducing good game design on the chance that it interferes with some campaign settings simulation doesn’t feel right.
ReplyDeleteI agree. There's a difference between a character of 6 stats on half a sheet of paper or one with an 8 page backstory and a 12 page character sheet.
DeleteDeath was omnipresent in the literature for everyone but the protagonist... especially for their allies. Read just about any Conan story.
ReplyDeleteThat said, indulge OD&D, you had raise dead and rings of many, many wishes, so for characters of middling level and above, death was just another basic obstacle.
In the end, it is a game, not a literary or historical emulator. There are plenty of those out there, now, for those who prefer that sort of play.
We've been playing OD&D lately, pre-Greyhawk. A few PCs of 4th or 5th level have tried making arrangements with a local Lama (only needed to be a 7th level cleric to cast the 5th level Raise Dead by the odd progression of the original rules) to cast it on them if needed. They needed to make a good impression (not easy with the 3d6 generation of Charisma, and one has failed so far), he's going to charge them thousands (no rules on how much it would cost), plus hundreds upfront, they're dependent on their henchmen to get their bodies to him within 4 days, and then they will need to pass a Constitution check for the spell to work (an average Con of 9-12 came with only a "60% to 90% chance of survival", and 7-8 meant 40-50%, so not a given). While it hasn't come into play yet, it's not feeling at all like the threat of death has been removed.
ReplyDeleteGiven that most players back in the day were often running multiple characters (frequently in the same party!), a PC dying wasn't that big a deal. Even if someone's favorite character was dead it didn't keep them from using them. In fact, once in our main group the DM allowed my brother to keep his Vulcan (yeah, don't ask) after he had been killed by a specter. So our party had an undead vulcan specter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
ReplyDeleteWhile I don't remember anyone being brought back by Raise Dead or Resurrection (a spell that was a BIT problematic considering many in that group of friends were preacher's kids), I recall someone getting Reincarnated as a raccoon or badger or some critter — and simply continuing to play their character AS that critter. No harm, no fowl.
...ah, i too, had my kender reincarnated as a raccoon and played out the rest of his days in kind...
DeleteThis is one debate that I've never (back in the day or today) been a part of:
ReplyDeleteOur parties at low level have almost always been either in too much debt to be able to resurrect a party member, or else we went into too much debt to pay someone of sufficient level (if we could find someone) to raise them, or it took us too many days to get the body in front of someone who could, etc. but attempting resurrection out of respect for our friend was always an adventure in itself. 1st level PC deaths were permanent - it was much cheaper (in player resources AND PC resources) to roll up a new guy.
Save or Die is an excellent framework on the other end: it encourages the development of player skill. New players are going to find out very quickly why "I'll bash this door in, too" is no wiser in-game than it is in real life. Seasoned players' PCs are going to smell smoke, assume fire, and figure out alternate methods of goal acquisition.
I wonder if this is why Princess Bride's "mostly dead" concept resonated with us as players back in the day. I still think of PC death (unexpectedly instantaneous) and resurrection (difficult, costly, eventful) in terms of "Miracle Max" and the Giant, the Swordsman, the Princess and the Dead Pirate (Roberts). D&D expressed it, but Rob Reiner illustrated it, for us, at least.
Death has always been a big deal in the game: I've always felt D&D handled it most elegantly.
But maybe death and dying D&D style is just not my weakness. Freaking Druids are another matter for me though...the greatest reason for banning raise dead from the table is if someone's druid beefs it.
"So our party had an undead vulcan specter."
ReplyDeleteWe broke Ravenloft's rails after the cleric got pinged by Strahd - and became vampire thralls and emissaries for the Count! I often say our group back in the day "played D&D wrong," but we had lots of fun. Today I play it "proper" (B/X + a couple of Dragon mag Classes + AD&D modules + big wilderness maps), but if a kid (or adult, for that matter) wanted a Vulcan, I would so totally allow it.
Way back when, a player's little brother played with us for the first time, rolled sufficiently and picked an elf. He named it Santa's Little Helper (after the Simpson's dog) and literally thought he was adventuring as a little Santa elf and thought his best possible contribution was an ability to make toys out of existing materials. In combat.
We absolutely allowed all of it. The kid was hilarious, the adventure memorable (it was in caves - probably Keep on the Borderlands) and it didn't kill the otherwise gritty vibe the rest of us played with. Then again, we were the right age to have accepted Mr. Myxlplik and Batmite at face value in our youth.
I’ve occasionally wondered about the practicality of introducing “resurrection insurance” into my campaign just to see how/if it would work. The characters would need to start by establishing some sort of long term relationship with a temple and/or cleric. The total cost is determined by level and characters build up a “credit” through donations and by performing quests that benefit the temple. Typically, players really don’t worry too much about a character dying until they reach a decent mid-level and they’ve established personalities, histories, connections etc. by this time, available money starts becoming a problem with characters earning larger and larger prizes for adventures. This “insurance” would be a good way to help siphon off these excess funds while also giving fodder for more adventures and intrigue.
ReplyDeleteAh yes, "Inn-Sewer-Ants-Polly-Seas."
DeleteAdding these to your campaign could create years of adventure all on their own; refer to the work of Master Terry Pratchett, especially the volume, "The Colour of Magic."
Also consider compound interest.
DeleteIf you can wait 140 years for a 14th level cleric to resurrect you, a modest 2% interest rate will increase your investment 16x over
Speaking of Reconsiderations, Death and maybe Resurrection, just one short year ago was the The Shadow Over August, one of James' most creative and insightful months of any year.
ReplyDeleteYou don't know what you got til it's gone.
Thanks again, James, for all your great posts over the years! Wishing you all the best.