In the past, I've written about D&D products that were announced or referenced but that, for whatever reason, never came to pass. While reading issue #55 of Dragon (November 1981), I came across references to some more (and some of the same) in Gary Gygax's "From the Sorceror's [sic] Scroll" column.
Of the five projects listed here, arguably only one – regular
World of Greyhawk information via
Dragon columns – was ever realized. TSR did release a City of Greyhawk boxed set in 1989, but I don't believe it bears much connection to the city from Gygax's campaign, having been written by Doug Niles, Carl Sargent, and Rik Rose. Likewise, we never saw any "smaller-scale maps of important areas of the Flanaess," unless you count some of the material included in Greyhawk modules from the late '80s and early '90s. Again, how much Gygaxian material any of these modules contain is likely tiny. This column is the first time I'd ever seen reference to "miniatures rules for large-scale battles between the states of Oerth" and I'm intrigued by the concept.
The last project mentioned, concerning the Greyhawk Castle and dungeons, is the most interesting. The fact that this project never saw much progress is well known and a source of much consternation from those of us interested in the earliest megadungeons of the hobby. Rather than simply give vent to my bitterness on this topic once more, I'd like to focus instead on Gygax's parenthetical comments about dungeon design. He says:
As with most extensive dungeon complexes, much is developed and kept in the head due to actual play, and some areas are so difficult as to be impossible for those not used to our DM style.
This is a very remarkable statement and one that rings true with my own experience. Mega or "tent pole" dungeons are in a constant state of flux, owing to the activities of the various factions that inhabit them, not to mention the actions of the player characters. Consequently, when refereeing a dungeon of this sort, it's often easiest to keep a very loose key rather than a more detailed one of the sort that works best for a published product. The process of converting Gygax's sketchy written material and mental notes into something fit for sale would no doubt have been an onerous one and I'm not at all surprised it never came to pass.
I thought WGr1: Greyhawk Ruins was the fruition of the Castle Greyhawk project. It certainly was a large module.
ReplyDeleteAs food for thought, perhaps a megadungeon "fit for sale" shouldn't be focus on presenting a product formatted like a tournament style dungeon. But rather focused on teaching the reader how the author ran the megadungeon.
ReplyDeleteWe do know that Gygax was able to do once with Rob Kuntz. And my opinion that any thing we can do as human can be taught or at least explained.
Poor, unemployed Gary was able to do it with Rob K. Later Gary was not.
DeleteWhat's that quote about poverty (or perhaps hunger?) being an excellent motivator? :)
DeleteTaking Gary's statement and thinking also about what he said about the essentiality of accurate time management then I can understand what he's getting at. The dungeon evolves with play and it would be difficult to describe that in a module. Any timeline of events would only make sense in the context of Gary & Rob's campaign.
ReplyDelete"The process of converting Gygax's sketchy written material and mental notes into something fit for sale would no doubt have been an onerous one and I'm not at all surprised it never came to pass."
ReplyDeleteWell, it partially came to pass. We did get Castle Zagyg: The Upper Works before Gail blew everything up.
Would have been nice if they'd done this sort of thing as a regular column in Dragon.
ReplyDeleteWell,TSR did publish Battlesystem, although it wasn't GH-specific
ReplyDeleteAnd Greyhawk WARS, though not for minis.
DeleteI rather enjoyed Greyhawk Wars. It was no Dragon Pass or Divine Right or Swords & Sorcery, but it felt fairly flavorful, played fast, and was easy to teach.
DeleteAgreed, Greyhawk Wars is a nifty little game. Conquest of Nerath tried to emulate it but wasn't as good, imho.
Delete...and now that I think of it: Chris Pramas's Chainmail is indeed a GH-specific, D&D derived, minis game.
Delete(Yeah, a little late and from a different company)
Indeed, although WotC Chainmail was set in a very different part of Oerth that I think had never been covered before (and wasn't much in the game, in part due to its short life span). There do seem to be some fans of the Sundered Empires part of western Oerik, though.
DeleteDefinitely not a mass combat rules set though, so it fails to provide the kind of "endgame content" for name-level characters with their own strongholds and followers that Battlesystem was trying to.
Steve Carpenter may not have come through with an Oerth-specific minis rules set, but this is only four years before Doug Niles' AD&D Battlesystem came out. It's been quite a while but IIRC that included at least one scenario set in Greyhawk, a world he was certainly familiar with. They did have him work on the 1989 City of Greyhawk box set - which I recall enjoying quite a bit, regardless of how much it may have strayed from Gygax's original campaign notes.
ReplyDeleteLooking back at your 2009 review of 1st ed Battlesystem, I see this in the comments:
"James, you need to read the Dragon magazine articles that accompanied the release of Battle System. Douglas Niles gives a fairly candid description of its development. Basically it was passed around for years before being completed. The combat matrix was apparently designed by David Cook. It probably got pushed out the door for the same reasons as Unearthed Arcana, which is to say TSR's precarious financial situation."
Assuming that's accurate (and it does sound vaguely familiar) it certainly jibes with the "in limbo" statement.
All in all, I think Niles' rules were okay for minis enthusiasts, less so for roleplayers who hadn't done much miniature wargaming, and definitely not as good as the 2nd edition that came out a few years later - although they were more "large skirmish" oriented than the fairly large (by RPG standards) battles 1st ed focused on.
But hey, Knight Hawks was really good. :)
On a vaguely related note, the project I always wanted to see from TSR and never got was a setting/world book or boxed set for Minaria from the Divine Right boardgame. They did just enough articles in Dragon to show there was depth to the setting that would have made it a really colorful D&D world, and then poof, it was never mentioned again. I still pine for the opportunity to visit sunny Shucassam and contract leprosy from the beggars, or stumble around the wilderness trying to locate the Invisible College of Thaumaturgy, or perhaps be horribly killed by mountain goblins and my body sold to the Black Hand for use as an undead minion.
ReplyDeleteAs for me, I would take service with the pirate king of Rombune and sail the behexed sea.
Delete(Seriously, I would so play that setting, and an ongoing play of the boardgame could become the background to the campaign, in the same way that Fifth Frontier War can be used for Traveller)
Glad to know I'm not alone. Running a campaign based on Divine Right gameplay sounds like it would be an awesome idea.
DeleteInteresting old thread here with a ton of links, some still functional:
https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4696