Wednesday, February 12, 2025

Retrospective: Mythus

By the end of 1986, Gary Gygax had completely severed any connection to TSR, the company he'd founded in 1973 with Don Kaye. His departure was not entirely of his own accord, having lost both financial and creative control over TSR a year earlier to his former business manager, Lorraine Williams. This is a well-known story the details of which others know better than I. Suffice it to say that, just before I graduated from high school, Gary Gygax, a man who had been, for good and for ill, the public face of Dungeons & Dragons and, by extension, TSR, was no longer involved with either in any way.

This fact did not, however, mean that Gygax would no longer be involved in the RPG industry. Almost immediately after his departure from TSR, he joined Forrest Baker, a fellow wargamer who'd worked as a consultant at TSR, in forming New Infinities Productions. Nowadays, New Infinities is probably best known for its publication of the science fiction roleplaying game, Cyborg Commando and the later installments of Gygax's "Gord the Rogue" novels.

New Infinities did not last long, ceasing operations barely two years after its founding. Even so, Gygax's projects during this period laid the groundwork for much of what he'd be doing for the remainder of his professional life. For example, he planned to produce "Castle Dunfalcon," a version of his Castle Greyhawk dungeon that would never see the light of day, though it did light the way for the eventual publication of Castle Zagyg in 2008. Likewise, Gygax announced an upcoming game called "Infinite Adventures." To be co-written with Rob Kuntz, "Infinite Adventures" would have been a multi-genre roleplaying game, consisting of different related rulebooks, each one devoted to a different genre (fantasy, horror, science fiction, etc.).

"Infinite Adventures" was never published and I have no idea whether any work was even devoted to its design. However, just a few years later, in 1992, Game Designers' Workshop released Mythus, the first book of a multi-genre roleplaying system written by Gygax, with the assistance of Dave Newton, a name otherwise unknown to me. That multi-genre system was initially announced as Dangerous Dimensions, but TSR threatened a lawsuit, because of a supposed similarity between the initials – DD – and those of Gygx's more famous game (D&D). To avoid the suit, GDW changed the series title to Dangerous Journeys. Unfortunately, this was not to be the last time TSR would legally interfere with GDW, Gygax, and Dangerous Journeys, as I'll discuss later.

Mythus is the fantasy component of Dangerous Journeys, focusing on an alternate world called Aerth where magic – or magick, in Gygax's parlance – and monsters are real. There are no "classes" in Mythus. Instead, there are "vocations," which are collections of skills (properly Knowledge and Skills or K/S). Regardless of vocation, characters – or heroic personas – can learn most skills, but at differing rates and costs, depending on a number of factors, chiefly vocation. It's a very different approach than in D&D and a lot more complicated too, or at least I felt so at the time. The situation isn't helped by Gygax's use of all manner of peculiar terminology and abbreviations that make reading almost any section of rules a challenge. 

The Mythus rulebook is over 400 pages long, divided between basic (or prime) and advanced rules. The prime rules are only about 20 pages long and covers all the foundational elements of the rule, like character creation, actions, combat, magic (or heka – as I said, the book is riddled with idiosyncratic word choices), and advancement. The advanced rules, meanwhile, take up the rest of the book. While extensive, they still don't cover everything you'd need to play Mythus. Magic, for example, is mostly shunted off to a separate book (Mythus Magick); the same is true of monsters (found in Mythus Bestiary). 

It's a shame. Though Mythus is way more complex than I like in my RPGs, there are lots of fascinating details hidden within it. For example, his approach to the planes, which is clearly an outgrowth of thoughts he'd had on the topic during the later years of his time developing AD&D. Indeed, that's the general vibe of Mythus overall: an evolution or development of many of the weirder ideas Gygax was toying with for his never-realized second edition of AD&D. I'm not suggesting that a Gygaxian 2e would have looked anything like Mythus rules-wise, but I do think that many of the game's worldbuilding flourishes, whether it be monsters, the planes, or magic, might have been incorporated into it in some fashion or other. That remains the appeal of the game to me, even though I've never played it: Mythus is a window into the imagination of Gygax more than a decade after he'd created AD&D.

That was also likely its downfall. TSR continued to hound Gygax about Dangerous Journeys, alleging that it derived too much from his prior work on AD&D and that it made use of concepts he'd developed while still employed by TSR. If you're interested, you can read some court documents related to their claims here. A great deal of it seems petty and its allegations so broad that I wonder whether they would have held up to legal scrutiny. In the end, though, it didn't matter, because GDW lacked the resources necessary to put up a protracted fight. After a couple of years, they threw in the towel, selling Mythus and Dangerous Journeys to TSR as a way to end the suit. And that was that.

To this day, I'm not certain I've ever met a person who's actually played Mythus, but I have met many people who, like me, have a strange affection for it nonetheless. That's not an endorsement of the game exactly. As I said, it's much too complicated mechanically and its bizarre nomenclature is an impediment to learning the rules, but I appreciate its Gygaxian oddities – its baroque cosmology, its quirky takes on folkloric monsters, its peculiar alternate Earth setting – and sometimes wonder what might have been had TSR not interfered. We never got to see Unhallowed, the next game in the Dangerous Journeys line, which was supposedly a horror game. What might that have been like? What would a Gygaxian take on sci-fi have been? So many unanswerable questions.

38 comments:

  1. I made some overly complicated RPGs in the 90s too. I think it was the style of the time to over complicate to distinguish the game from the element simplicity of D&D.

    I did the math and at this point I've been playing D&D longer than Gary ever got to. I will get most of my life to think about RPGs thanks to him. From child who could barley read to hopefully playing at a table in the old folks home.

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  2. I think there was a blog where they started doing a read-through of this and the blog seemed to give up fairly quickly on both Mythus and the blog itself? I bought New Infinities' Aesheba, which I quite liked and borrowed ideas from, but when DJ came out we were all heavily involved in WHFRP and cyberpunk settings.

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    1. My fave blog series ever, here: https://vaultsofnagoh.blogspot.com and yes, it seems to have killed the blog. I own the whole Mythus line and laughed so hard reading this blog series that my stomach hurt.

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    2. Here is best link for just the Mythus posts https://vaultsofnagoh.blogspot.com/p/lets-read-mythus-compiled.html?m=1

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  3. I stumbled across Mythus in the mid 1990s. Read the rules, rolled my eyes, and left the book on the shelf. Years later, I read a criticism of Gygax that seems relevant here, "He was simple where he should have been complex and complex where he should have been simple."

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  4. I've actually ran a couple of Mythus campaigns, back when it first came out.

    It is a very good game; intricate, over-worked maybe, with a few bad calculations on skills, and yes, with a weird lexicon, but still very good.

    With its intricacies, you know EVERYTHING there is to know about your character. It may take a while to make a character, but once you have the character finished, and understand the various sub-KS areas and how any related fiddly systems work, it is a simple system, basically percentages like BRP.

    Combat can get bogged down a bit, as it has its intricacies like RuneQuest, but even moreso.

    And magick and heka... yeah, it really gets into minutiae there. The heka calculation system is as intricate and Byzantine and mostly unworkable as the AD&D 1E initiative system.

    But dang, it does all play real nice. And Epic of Aerth is the best and most complete Earth-analogue campaign setting ever.

    Gary's later Lejendary Adventure system is also a percentile system, very distantly related to Mythus, and a LOT easier to play. Lejendary Earth (or Learth as some call it) can easily be set among the spectrum of parallel worlds.

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  5. When you mean to say "dexterity" and it comes out "physical neural speed", your system may be a bit too complicated. :)
    Epic of Aerth was good, though, and so was the bestiary.

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    1. Somewhat surprisingly, I also enjoyed the novels. The game itself wasn't so hot, but the setting had some potential for light fiction.

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    2. There were four novels published that were set in Aerth:

      The Anubis Murders (1992)
      The Samarkand Solution (1993)
      Death in Delhi (1993)
      Infernal Sorceress (2008)

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    3. I never did get to Infernal Sorceress, something I should remedy someday. They others are decent fantasy-mystery stories, not up there with the Lord Darcy or Garrett PI series by a long shot but readable enough.

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  6. Oh, and one comment I meant to make on terminology -- Gary had to make the Mythus lexicon as different as possible from that of D&D. You can see in the lawsuit how nitpicky TSR got even with the changes. He had to do it to try to differentiate Mythus from D&D as much as possible... didn't work, of course, because as in most such cases, TSR's lawsuits were never on the merits in the court, they were simply used to beat down opposition who did not have deep enough pockets to resist.

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    1. That was certainly their normally legal approach, and not solely after Gygax's forced departure from the company either. You'd think he'd have known what was coming, honestly.

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  7. I played it for about six months, largely at the urging of a housemate who was obsessed with the system. Wish I could get those months back. Terribly inelegant system made worse by ugly layout and the odd bits of poor editing.

    It also hurt GDW badly to have to deal with TSR's legal pressures and an utter flop of a big game project like this, which probably contributed significantly to the company's eventual demise. As someone who valued GDW highly (far more than TSR at that point) the entire Mythus debacle left me even more disillusioned with They Sue Regularly and put me off buying anything Gygax had a hand in writing ever again.

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    1. Similar here, but maybe even sharper. Not being into D&D/TSR/EGG to begin with, his connection with GDW (with me being into Traveller) and, at least by rumor, kind of sucking all the air out the room, didn't endear that whole RPG ecosystem (egosystem?) to me any further.

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  8. I never met EGG. Sure, he had his flaws. He was just a guy who made a great game. All I can say is he can only be judged by his legacy.

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  9. I certainly remember seeing it, but my group was already well moved into Rolemaster as our primary FRPG, and an array of other genre games (C'thulhu mostly, with a sprinkling of others) so this never really was on our radar.

    Does sound like it has more in common with Rolemaster than with (A)D&D though.

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  10. “Oh, and one comment I meant to make on terminology -- Gary had to make the Mythus lexicon as different as possible from that of D&D.”

    From a legal standpoint, I don’t think that’s true. But from a practical standpoint, I’m pretty sure that the terminology was just Gygax being Gygax (which is one of the reasons I enjoy reading DJ/Mythus). Because he certainly didn’t go out of his way to make anything else different from AD&D in the book. You could easily make the case that he went out of his way to make it like AD&D in some weird subcases.

    One of the funniest is the list of clothing. DJ has a lot more clothing in its list of stuff to purchase than AD&D does. Like the AD&D list, the DJ list is in alphabetical order. Unlike the AD&D list, it is in alphabetical order twice. The DJ list exactly reproduces the AD&D list, in order, and then restarts the alphabet for the new stuff that the AD&D list doesn’t have.

    Now, lists aren’t copyrightable, and this kind of list certainly isn’t trademarkable. But it does argue against his having used weird terminology to avoid TSR’s lawyers. Seeing identical lists in the book, obviously copied from his work in AD&D, wasn’t likely to scare TSR’s lawyers off.

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    1. Oof, I'd never noticed that in the equipment lists before! That's a gross error.

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    2. That's rather amusing in a sad sort of way. Never noticed it when I still owned a copy, although I do recall thinking there sure were a lot of clothing options on offer.

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  11. I feel like "it's much too complicated mechanically and its bizarre nomenclature is an impediment to learning the rules" pretty much sums up.Damgerpus Journeys.

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  12. FWIW, a quick look at RPGgeek informs me that Dave Newton (Gygax's co-author on DJ) also contributed articles to a couple of short-lived DJ mags and zines and at least four issues of the much better-known Shadis magazine. He also has designer credits on Rapture: the Second Coming (an obscure 1995 RPG from someplace called Quintessential Mercy Studio) and a couple of products in the somewhat less obscure (as in, I've at least seen copies in stores) Shaintar Savage Worlds setting (from Savage Mojo in the 20-teens).

    So not a big name in the industry, but he was still doing some 3PP SW stuff as recently as last decade so not one with the 90s, anyway.

    It would be interesting to learn how much of DJ was his work and how much was Gygax, but I doubt we'll ever know for sure at this point. I assume his Shadis articles were DJ related (they all slightly predate Rapture's release) but that's just a guess without digging up the individual issues.

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    1. I got to meet Dave at Gen Con '93, when I picked up a copy of the core book and got Gary and Dave to sign it. Nice guy!

      From my understanding he was very embittered by what happened to Mythus and the whole DJ line and would not talk about it for some time. I know all too well how that works, and hope that he eventually has or will move on, because that's really all you can do...

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    2. @James Mishler He was freelancing as recently as 2017, and might well have stuff out there I don't know about (RPGGeek isn't all that well-researched sometimes), so he was getting some use out his design experiences post-Mythus. Can't blame him for being upset about it, especially if it was (as it appears to be) his first big break in the industry.

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  13. I have the main book, magic, and Necropolis! which is awesome, and Necromancer re-did a while back. Still need the beastiary

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    1. Necropolis is indeed very good, perhaps even a masterpiece. I should probably do a post about it someday.

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    2. With the latest Kickstarter versions from Necromancer Games, there are four versions:

      Dangerous Journeys
      3rd Edition OGL
      5th Edition OGL
      Swords & Wizardry

      And I'm guessing there's an original manuscript in 1E AD&D somewhere, as it has always struck me as having been developed originally for AD&D.

      I actually own the very first copy ever sold of the 3E OGL version, sold to me by Clark Peterson at Gen Con 2002, just as the exhibitor hall opened (and also signed by Gary).

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    3. I think Gygax makes a passing reference to Necropolis in Master of the Game, which means it predates DJ at least in concept, and may actually give some credence to the claims that he worked on stuff at TSR that he later repurposed for DJ.

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  14. Jim Hodges---
    If you had told me back about the time period this post concentrates on that D&D would still be played today, I'm not sure I'd have believed it. Gygax was out at TSR, all my friends seemed to be abandoning the game, our younger siblings seemed more oriented to video games, and later MTG, and it was an open secret that TSR was on shaky ground.

    I remember I decided D&D was a phenom of the '80s, part of the zeitgeist of an era that was fading, and I expected to spend my life mourning its role in the good old days, and explaining to future generations what it ever was.

    Sometimes it's a pleasure to be wrong ...

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    1. I expected TSR to be gone before long (which it was) but always figured D&D would get picked up by some company (which it was) eventually. My guess would have been some video game publisher who mostly wanted the IP rights, though. WotC coming out of nowhere to become an industry juggernaut is a bit like the Mule in Asimov's Foundation series - a random factor that couldn't be accurately predicted by anyone.

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  15. I remember having a PDF copy of Mythus back in the late 90s, but I don't remember why; did Wizards maybe release it after they bought TSR? In any event, I never so much as attempted to play it; as others have said, the learning curve is immense, and not aided by the bizarre terminology.

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  16. It's ironic that the same litigiousness that TSR employed while Gary was at TSR was the same litigiousness that undermined his life after. I remember seeing DJ in the shelves, but at that point the behavior of TSR in the industry was well known, and I had soured on the company. It made it easy to ignore Gary's (and TSRs) stuff when he left. I remember ignoring Forgotten Realms around the same time. It's a shame - Gary had some interesting ideas. If only the guy hadn't lost himself along the way.

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  17. Mythus is one of my "play before I die" games (just like Original Traveller was until I started a campaign with my group a couple years ago). I have all the books, just waiting for the moment. I feel that it's a game that gets trashed more for notoriety's sake than actual play experience.

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    1. I think you're almost definitely right. Gygax being Gygax, I'm sure there is a fun game in there, but he made it tough to get to this time around.

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  18. When Mythus appeared in 1992, Greg Stafford cheekily called it "the best roleplaying game of 1978."

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    1. If EGG was the OG OSR guy, that's kind of fitting :)

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  19. I ran a fair amount of Mythus, tried first with Advanced, then went back to Prime and just added in the skills and professions we needed. It was an easier sell than RoleMaster or Swords Path Glory, or even RuneQuest, which were the main options for our group.

    The setting's great, the rules work fine, there's just too many of them. Pity TSR was run by villains.

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  20. I actually played some Mythus way back when, generating the swashbuckling explorer / playwright / architect Marcello Muldanado (who later become a fixture of written lore in other campaigns in other worlds). There was a lot that I liked about the system, though will gladly admit that it was super crunchy, took several readings to get a decent grip on sme aspects, but that's no different than several other systems that emerged during that period (later though - DnD 3rd hadn't hit yet IIRC or at least I didn't play it until years later). Few places will you encounter a magic system as in depth, using a variety of skills to generate the spell points and aspects of different magical approaches, but that's not the trend these days of quick starts and slim 48 page indie games.

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