Here’s a confession that might get me kicked out of the old school clubhouse: I hate combat in roleplaying games.
There: I said it.
Now, I’m – obviously – not saying combat never has a place at the table. I've refereed sessions where battles were tense, dramatic, and even thrilling, with cunning ambushes, panicked melees in cramped spaces, last-stand battles with high stakes for all those involved. If you want, I can recount plenty of examples of fun, memorable combats from almost any campaign I've run in recent years (and some from well before that). However, those are the exceptions, the golden flecks in the gravel.
Most of the time, combat is the broccoli on my RPG dinner plate, something I chew through dutifully because I’m told it’s good for me. This is especially true when I'm refereeing games like Dungeons & Dragons and its descendants, which tend to highlight combat. From what I can tell, other people seem to genuinely like combat. After all, it’s in every rulebook and often takes up its longest chapter. Combat's part of a balanced adventuring diet, isn’t it?
And yet I regularly find it tedious.
Roll to hit. Miss. Roll to hit. Miss. Roll damage. Deduct hit points. Wait. Roll to hit. Miss. Consult a chart. Roll to confirm. Miss again. Meanwhile, someone's scrolling through social media. Combat grinds on, a clockwork of attrition that slows down the pace of the session. The usual momentum of exploration, intrigue, or even character banter gives way to a wargame that’s usually just complex enough to bog things down but not complex enough to be tactically interesting.
I know this sounds like sacrilege, especially coming from someone who inhabits the old school part of the hobby, where monsters are there to be slain and treasure to be pried from their still-warm claws. But even when I was a kid, the parts of a session I looked forward to weren’t the whittling down of hit points or the tracking of initiative. They were everything else.
I loved describing sinister rooms filled with strange objects and watching my friends debate whether or not to touch them. I loved watching them argue about the safest way for their characters to cross a rickety rope bridge across a chasm. I loved their paranoid investigations of hidden crawlspaces and their impromptu diplomacy with bullywugs they were trying to convince of their good intentions (I should write about that sometime). I loved the awkward, funny, surprisingly human interactions between characters and the worlds I'd presented to them.
That’s always been the meat of roleplaying games for me: not the fighting, but the playing. Heck, that's why I'm still here after all these years.
To be clear: I love a good fight. In fact, as a player, I really respect a well-run tactical encounter and have nothing but praise for referees capable of this. A few years ago, for example, I played in a great Rolemaster campaign run by a friend who knew the game – and its combat rules – like the back of his hand. I left that campaign with a much greater appreciation for the unique virtues of Rolemaster and its chart-driven approach to combat. It helped, too, that the referee had a good sense of how to make combats fun, a skill in which I am decidedly lacking.
I often include combats because I feel obligated to do so. Of late, I've noticed this most often in my Barrett's Raiders Twilight: 2000 campaign. Since T2K is a military RPG, it would be ridiculous not to have combats, wouldn't it? So, we have them, even though I spend most sessions trying to figure out ways to avoid them. Again, it's not that we haven't had fun and exciting combats in that campaign, because I know we have. However, they're not what interest me and I regularly feel as if combat doesn't play to my strengths as a referee.
Consequently, I sometimes think of combat as a tax I have to pay to get to the good parts of the session, like those unskippable ads on YouTube, except the ads last half an hour and require me to reread the rules on incendiary ammunition. Again.
Now, I understand that some people love combat. For some, it’s what they most enjoy about RPGs. There’s a satisfying clarity in the geometry of battle, the crisp chain of cause and effect, the tactical puzzle. I completely understand that, because, as I said, I've had moments where I felt the same way. So, I salute their enthusiasm. I merely ask that they might forgive me when I can't be bothered to remember the modifier for an attack against a prone target or how much protection a concrete wall provides against weapons fire.
For me, the real excitement comes when players sidestep combat entirely. When they parley, sneak, bribe, confuse, seduce, or otherwise avoid having to resort to swordplay or gunfire. Not only do I cheer those moments for the cleverness they demonstrate, but also because it means I don't have to worry about my own tactical inadequacies. Plus, it's in the unscripted non-combat interactions that the game feels most alive to me.
So, yes, I hate combat – but only because I love everything else about roleplaying games so much more.
Still, just often enough to make me question everything, a combat shines. The dice align, the stakes are high, the players are desperate, and suddenly we’re not just resolving a skirmish. We’re there, holding our collective breaths, waiting for the next roll. In those moments, I’m reminded why people put up with those incendiary ammunition rules.
This confession comes as no surprise to those of us who've been reading Grognardia for a while :)
ReplyDeleteThe long-standing mystery is your devotion to OSR and to RPG originalism/nostalgia in general!
"Roll to hit. Miss. Roll to hit. Miss. Roll damage. Deduct hit points. Wait. Roll to hit. Miss. Consult a chart. Roll to confirm. Miss again."
ReplyDeleteThis is a D&D thing. D&D and its ilk. I'm in a few games and I'm running two campaigns and yeah, none of them really have this. This is an old and I almost want to say outdated means of running combat. I hate it too. I find it endlessly dry and boring.
That said...I don't care about 'tactical' combat. I don't enjoy wargaming. Never have. To me its all about atmosphere, narrative, and feel.
Seeing combat and non-combat as two separate things is strange to me. Why aren't people doing both at the same time?
Don't heroes in movies and TV banter while fighting? Haven't you had one PC trying to deactivate the tractor beam while three others are fighting off Stormtroopers and another is sneaking aboard their Space Freighter to start her up?
I don't like combat either...in games that make combat suck.
I tend to agree that this is mostly a problem with ablative hit points mechanics: when you are "low level" it takes really little to kill your PC. But as soon as you have a few levels under your belt it becomes a war of attrition.
Delete100% agreed with you. Many RPGs have dreadful combat systems that insist on getting in the way of the rest of the gameplay loop (whatever that may be) rather than adding to it. D&D tends to be among the worst offenders in that sense.
DeleteI find a good litmus test for an RPG's combat system is whether you can take a supposedly balanced encounter and play it as a game unto itself and enjoy the process. If combat is unfun as a standalone experience, it's going to be at least as bad as part of a full RPG, and probably worse IME. For ex, there's a good reason I like The Fantasy Trip more than GURPS for fairly basic fantasy rules. Melee and Wizard have long since proved that the combat rules work on their own, and have fans of their own. Man-To-Man though? No one pines for that clunker even though GURPS as a whole is a much more popular (and versatile) game - although I guarantee you Steve was hoping lightning would strike a third time and he might get a free-standing hit out of it instead of it just being a largely-forgotten intro to GURPS.
TL;DR I like combat in RPGs when the combat rules are good. It's a shame so few RPGs manage to get over that basic requirement.
My only experience with D&D-family systems is with D&D 4E, which is obviously, pervasively, obsessively about combat. I should hate it. I probably do. But it turned out to be fun for me, because it was so unlike any other TTRPGing I'd done in the previous 30+ years, but even more because at the table we took all the feats and powers and tactical twiddles and made them role playing toys. Often we/the GM stopped tracking hit points and conditions and the resolution of the fight was determined by the _vibe_ that had developed.
DeleteIt's still not my thing though -- it was a fun interlude but I doubt I'd go back to anything in that family of game systems again.
I'm sort of with you. Especially with games like D&D 3e or Pathfinder where a combat can take up most of session and are only there to wear away the PCs resources. I want combat to be short, fast and exciting but more often than not it seems to end up a long and tedious slog...a frustrating war of attrition. But when they do work...especially through clever play or tactics...they are moments of fist-pumping high drama that are hard to beat!
ReplyDeleteEh, how much 3e did you play? IMO it is the last edition (especially 3.0) to have the DNA of the OD&D/1e/2e tradition while introducing elements from popular games of the time (Gurps, Ruenquest, Rolemaster etc) and combat is actually nothing like described in the post here. The designers specifically had the complaints that are being expressed here and went out to fix that, and did a pretty good job. Combat is interesting, dramatic and exciting and often quick and deadly. AD&D combat especially as levels rise is far slower than 3e combat, but this is something that has been forgotten to time as 3e has been repainted with a revisionist brush thanks to what the internet did with it by around 2005 onwards.
DeleteSo do I.
ReplyDeleteSince it's intrinsic to good play to avoid fighting, or at least fair fights, as much as possible and since many newer games inflate the duration of combat several times over and/or make it the main purpose of play and means of advancement, no, I don't find it surprising that an enthusiast of old school play would have a tepid attitude towards combat.
ReplyDeleteIt didn't take me long after I first started DMing to stop giving the paltry XP awards for monsters slain and stick to XP-for-GP only.
Systems exist that don't have to-hit rolls. You just roll for damage, narrate some combat maneuver, etc.
ReplyDeleteThat's exactly why I loved the concept of "Call of Cthulhu". The game was (at least in my opinion) all about the setting and the interaction between players and the universe. Combat usually meant only a meaningless and horrifying death without glory.
ReplyDelete"Hit, miss,etc..." is exactly what combat turns into without tabletop roleplaying in person. The "boardgame" aspect is an essence of old school D&D, either with miniatures or at least a drawing or markers of some sort. Players gathered around a table is fundamental to the old school experience. "Seeing" the environment of a combat is fun, immersive, and encourages player agency. I am saddened by this post...lol
ReplyDeleteToo much combat can indeed grind an otherwise enjoyable game to a halt. The best sessions I remember had a good balance with enough combat to keep the fighter types happy but enough of everything else to keep all of the players engaged.
ReplyDeleteThis for me as well, I begin to find almost any aspect of an rpg - combat, role-playing, exploration, etc. boring if the game becomes too heavily weighted in any of those directions. Balance is key for me.
DeleteTrue for me. Although I like combat, I also like it when it's not limited to *just* combat, and instead is a variety of all the different aspects (like the role-playing, exploration, etc. you mentioned) of TTRPG's in the broadest sense.
DeleteI agree that some games have very tedious combat mechanics but I won't go as far as saying I find all combat boring.
ReplyDeleteI think that lack of a tactical component (usually a map) is one of the main culprits in making combat just a slew of dice rolls that feel like work.
On a d20, 1 being a fumble and 20 being a critical hit spices things up. And the DM describing the action spices it up too. "You split his skull from top to teeth." Or "Oh, fumble! You trip over a body and fall face first, breaking your nose. That's one point of damage, and you miss out on next round." I'm 54 and I play with teenagers, so this works well. They eat it up, and there's often hoots, hollers, and cries of protest, and every once in a while threats against my bodily well-being. :)
ReplyDeleteI love combat, and don't find AD&D combat rules a grind at all (though 5E can be, since HP are so inflated). But then, when I'm DMing, I narrate events in combat. Not all of the time, but just enough to help players imagine the scene.
ReplyDeleteAlright, I'll bite. What are quote/unquote 'good' examples of TTRPG's were the focus is not on combat, which in my experience D&D 5e is ? (Someone else mentioned "Call of Cthulhu", but I have no personal knowledge/experience with it).
ReplyDeleteNarration is the key. Give a bit of description of the combat. You don't have to with every swing. Maybe the killing blow, or crits and fumbles if you use them. In my game, when the killing blow is made, I have the player describe it to me. Gets them into the action.
ReplyDeleteSame, James. Exploration is where it's at for me.
ReplyDelete"It helped, too, that the referee had a good sense of how to make combats fun." ... Can you share some of the things he did, and some of the things you've picked up over the years to make it more fun/less tedious?
ReplyDeleteThe biggest thing he did was provide individualized charts for every player, based on their weapons and skills, so that it was very easy to understand and use the Rolemaster combat system. He was also incredibly familiar with the rules and could answer questions from the players without having to refer to rules. That level of confidence started to spill over onto the players, too, and before long we began to see how the system hung together and made full use of it. In short, he knew the rules well and helped the players to understand them, which paid dividends.
DeleteI feel the same way about D&D combat. I won't try to dig up the quote, but I'm pretty sure Arneson was against increasing hp with level back in the day, seem to recall reading that in Playing at the World. That could make all the difference right there. One of my favorite non-D&D RPGs these days is Dread, played with a Jenga tower. Every action has the possibility for ruin, not the risk of losing 7% of your hp.
ReplyDeleteSo did I, until I discovered the wonders of auto-hit and Into The Odd style combat. Or Maze Rats and Vagabonds of Dyfed (both eschew damage rolls entirely).
ReplyDeleteI don’t know T2K rules, but if they’re realistic I would think the PCs would want to avoid combat too. Being laid up in a hospital for an extended time or needing long-term rehabilitation would be a bit of a drag for the player. And long-range trades of suppressive fire sound uninteresting too.
ReplyDeleteThe writers of Space Opera must have realized how lethal its system was because they included rules for resurrection: as long as the character wasn’t disintegrated or took a serious head shot, they had a good chance of being brought back. (And it was noted that turnabout was fair play if the players started deliberately shooting their downed opponents in the head.)
There’s a genre aspect to this too. As Ronan noted above, in Call of Cthulhu combat is to be avoided by the players, but when you play Villains & Vigilantes or Marvel Superheroes do you expect to talk your way out of fights?
Finally, isn’t the tedium mitigated when the players or their opponents plan ahead to win a necessary fight quickly with a high chance of success? I would think the problem mostly comes with unanticipated 50/50’s, especially with an attritional combat system and no real stakes.
I agree stick-thwacking combat can be dull but if you played any other aspect of the game that way it would also suck. Diplomacy? Rolling persuasion checks back and forth 'til one gives in. Exploration? Describing objects in rooms and rolling search until treasure or monsters are found. People make their own combats bad because they use nothing BUT the core combat loop, whilst adding plenty of embellishments to every other aspect and claiming they're inherently better. Even removing to-hit rolls is just streamlining combat, which is a race to the bottom.
ReplyDeleteTo make combat better you need to add more Goals and *can* add more methods, otherwise all that exists is Survival and Loot. If you fight a monster with a valuable jewel in its head that breaks if treated violently, you get a VERY different combat than stick-thwacking; because you've split incentives between treasure and survival. If you create a situation where two factions are fighting each other, you inherently ask players to consider what they *want*; which asks them to consider what incentives they might have. Do they like one side more? Do they want to make one side indebted to them? Do they want to just wait and gank the winners? Do they use it as a distraction?
When it comes to the beat-by-beat, this is where method meets incentive. Attack is your default baseline; all other methods are compared to this. You take attack actions because it's a low-cost method of achieving progress. So; provide high-cost ones that grant more or safer progress, like limited magic items. Maybe a bubbling cauldron that damages the enemy but leaves the environment hazardous. If the enemy has behaviours, maybe methods can exploit them. There's reason every videogame has a bull-rush boss; it's the second step up from stick-thwacking to analyze the opponent can be baited into a high-cost move while you focus on defence/dodging.
Not that the books really tell you to do any of this, but neither do they tell you how to describe a room or adjudicate a witty banter; yet combat always gets singled out as the one that must be bland and book-rules only, probably because it's where the most lethality occurs and where competitive D&D reared its ugly head the worst.
People who talk like this, usually do not use proper spatial positioning. A self fiulfilling prophecy: boring and de-spatialized people run boring and de-spatialized combats.
ReplyDeleteOMG THE WALLS OF TEXT ARE CLOSING IN AHHHHH!!!!!
ReplyDeleteWhat is described in the post is one thing that, in long term campaigns, we couldnt handle anymore with AD&D. 3e kept much of what we liked about AD&D but addressed the "Roll to hit. Miss. Roll to hit. Miss. Roll damage. Deduct hit points. Wait. Roll to hit. Miss. Consult a chart. Roll to confirm. Miss again" problem that is described here, and it mostly worked. It is very fast (people forget this about 3e, one of the most praised things about it around when it came out was how fast and fluid combat was), it is very interesting when people know the rules, and even when they don't use most of the rules it is still more interesting than AD&D combat and it is dramatic. Say what you want about feats and skills (I've got my complaints too, especially with what the game became as the years wore on), but 3e combat is fun and can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be. Everything after the 3.5 revision started to take the game in directions I don't like, and Pathfinder took it way too far, but 2000-2003 3e/3.5 core is still a great game for anyone who wants to still be playing in the vein of TSR D&D with a more interesting take on certain parts of the game (like combat and out of combat interactions).
ReplyDelete