Long ago, I wrote about a fantasy art book that fascinated my childhood friends and I. Called Down in the Dungeon, the book featured color illustrations of a locale called Zarakan's Dungeon. Because there's very little text in the book, there's almost no context for anything depicted in it, beyond this overview of the subterranean complex.
It's a very cool illustration, especially because all of the artwork included in Down in the Dungeon can be placed within it. In fact, if you look carefully at the overview, you can even make out smaller versions of some of the scenes found elsewhere in the book. For example, in the upper right hand portion of the overview, you can see a bunch of pillars. Those pillars – and what's around them – can be seen more clearly in a pair of other illustrations.
In the book, these two illustrations are side by side, as you can see from the creature passed out from intoxication in the first piece, whose hand can be seen in the second one. In the book, a captain accompanies them, reading "Neutral Ground. Be of Goodly Order." Clearly, this is meant to be a bar or tavern located within the dungeon, where all its various inhabitants, monstrous or otherwise, can rub shoulders not only with one another but also with adventurers – so long as they all are "of goodly order."It's a pretty strange concept, a bar within a dungeon and yet I can recall at least one dungeon I played in as a young man that included such a thing. The bar was explicitly a "safe area" where characters could rest and even re-supply, though to a limited extent. I don't know where the referee, whom I met at a "games day" at a local library, got the idea for such a thing. I'd never seen anything like it before (since I hadn't yet encountered Down in the Dungeon) and I recall finding it odd. However, my fellow players and I went along with it, since there were all sorts of weird NPCs in the place with whom we enjoyed interacting. Plus, as I said, the bar was a place where our characters could rest up, heal, and get more food/water, arrows, and other similar things. I suppose the referee intended it as a mercy of sorts, since the rest of the dungeon was pretty brutal.
Has anyone else ever encountered something like this in a dungeon? Are there any examples of it in fantasy literature or perhaps in a fantasy RPG? I can't shake the feeling that I'm failing to remember something obvious.
I think the idea of a neutral ground bar in the dungeon may have been introduced my first weekend of D&D play in 1977, but maybe it was a bit later. Definitely the idea was inspired by something I saw or was told about. Possibly there was something in The Dragon or even The Strategic Review that suggested it? Or maybe something in Tunnels & Trolls?
ReplyDeleteSpoilers for Stonehell, but I've been running it for a couple of years an that illustration is basically how me and my players imagine the Kobold Korner in the first level. Down in level 6 you can find the Fire Beetle Bar, which has a similar vibe.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny that you mention this because I just heard about this very concept in a BrOSR video between Dunder Moose and BDubs
ReplyDeleteOne of the adventures in the original Fighting Fantasy rpg has a dungeon with a restaurant in it. ('Pookie's Eating House', run by a trio of dwarves).
ReplyDeleteThere is one run by two dwarfs in The Wishing Well for the Fighting Fantasy rpg. It wouldn't surprise me of you found others in one of the Fighting Fantsy books.
ReplyDeleteI recall Rat on a Stick (from 1982?) had something similar: A Fast Food Chain in Dungeons that Player Characters could even get involved in running.
ReplyDeleteI believe such a "Dungeon Tavern" exists in one of the old Judges Guild module.
ReplyDeleteBlackrock Depths in the original World of Warcraft had such a bar, populated by non-hostile versions of the dungeon's usual denizens. If the players behaved themselves, they would be left in peace.
ReplyDeleteNo direct experience of in-dungeon taverns, fast food outlets, or the like, but I do remember _hearing_ about them, as a kid, as the kind of thing that those old-school D&D players were into. Old-school as we understood it in the early 80s that is. (And _they_ made fun of _us_ for having intelligent ducks!!!!)
ReplyDeleteIs Jabba around?
ReplyDeleteMy B/X megadungeon campaign had a goblin market that was explicitly a "neutral ground", where weapons were checked at the door and the various dungeon factions might all be encountered, shopping for lousy weapons, dubious provisions, information and gossip, etc. I think I was probably inspired the aforementioned "Kobold Korner" in Stonehell, but I feel like the concept has older antecedents. I mean, even the Mos Eisley cantina has the vibe of a place where beings who would normally be enemies can meet under a fragile truce ("No blasters, no blasters!").
ReplyDeleteThat's closer to my experience than an actual tavern. I've played in a couple of "dungeons" (more like underground settlements) that had neutral trading grounds that even surface worlders were tolerated in if they kept the peace. One of them had a designated "peace road" that ran through it from the surface to the depths, the other had a bunch of teleport gates. You could certainly buy food or drinks in them, but that wasn't the reason they existed.
DeleteTwo as I can recall. The Undermountain module Skull Port had a few drinking establishments( one inside a dead purple worm) and in one of the Arduin Grimoires there was a place mentioned called Dirty Dorgs that was a sort of inn situated in one of the under cities where you could mingle openly with bad guys and buy all sorts of unsavory things.
ReplyDeleteNot quite the same thing, but I have a place in my Oriental Adventures campaign called Dragon Gate Inn—based off the movie of the same name—that is a neutral location where enemy forces can congregate and parley, without fights breaking out. The neutrality is maintained by the owner/barkeep, an epic swordsman-philosopher (secretly a woman) of melancholic character.
ReplyDeleteThe obvious science fiction analogues would be Gavagan’s Bar from L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt, and, what is likely to have been more influential to the writers of Down in the Dungeon, Spider Robinsons’s Callahan’s Crosstime Saloon. The latter was published in 1977, which, given the length of time books stayed on the shelves then, was likely easily still available in bookstores when Down in the Dungeon was being written. While there are other “bar” style science fiction/fantasy books (Tales from the White Hart, for example), most involved normal people telling fantastic stories, whereas Callahan’s and Gavagan’s involve fantastic customers, too.
ReplyDeleteIt makes sense to me that a large enough dungeon might have such a place, although it'd likely need a powerful sponsor to protect it.
ReplyDeleteThe part that I get stuck on is "survival once you exit the bar".
I've had a couple of GMs who had "deep market" neutral grounds in their dungeons and actually thought about the answer to safe access for delvers.
DeleteIn one case there was a designated "peace road" that ran through the whole dungeon complex from surface to underdark, passing through the market on the way. No one would attack you on the road (at risk of being cursed by old magics laid into it) but you were fair game if you set foot off of it outside the market.
The other GM just had a number of magic portals, some to the surface, some to stranger places. The locations of their other ends were mostly very well-defended, so using the place as a transit hub wasn't really an option unless you had some powerful patrons who were willing to intercede for you. Not as creative, but it mostly worked.
There's a "dungeon bar" described in Arduin Volume IV that's pretty much exactly as you describe. That's from 1984 and is the earliest example I know (I don't count Rat on a Stick). It's reminiscent enough of Lieber's Bazaar of the Bizarre that the latter may well be the original inspiration.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if it fits the timing of your story, could what you're overlooking be the shops in roguelikes? They would have been at about that same time, no?
RPGNow should try to get the rights to publish this.
ReplyDeleteFrom "Hints for D&D Judges: Part I: Towns" by Joe Fischer (The Strategic Review #7, April 1976) [also published in The Best of The Dragon]:
ReplyDelete'If a town sounds like too much work, with a little imagination, a judge can come up with his own type of supply base. In the now defunct castle "Black Star" (one of my first attempts at castle building) the first level was given over to inns, pubs, and shops--including the shop of a slightly crazy high level wizard who seemed to have a little bit of everything, including a chest of Gondorian Red, a chest of Mordorian Black, and a balrog Butler named Boris (who "Black Star's ex-players should remember well).'