I've no doubt mentioned on numerous occasions that, as a kid, I was never a big reader of comic books – at least not superhero comic books. Even so, many of my friends were avid comic readers and, more than that, it would have been quite difficult growing up in the 1970s and '80s to not know at least a little bit about comic book superheroes, particularly those published by Marvel Comics, merchandise for which was seemingly everywhere at the time. So, while I never a devoted fan of the genre, I was familiar with its characters and storylines.
Consequently, once I got into roleplaying games, I inevitably picked up Champions and had a good time with it, though it was never going to rise as high in my affections as, say, Dungeons & Dragons or Traveller. Champions was too ponderous and math-heavy for my tastes and seemed, to my way of thinking at any rate, to be a poor fit with the fast and frenetic action of superhero slugfests. Champions was good enough, because I didn't have any other ready alternatives, but I never connected to it the way I did with other RPGs.
TSR's Marvel Super Heroes, on the other hand, was pretty close to perfect for my purposes. That it was published by TSR certainly helped, I am sure, but, unlike many of TSR's other non-D&D offerings, Marvel Super Heroes was one that I played regularly, because it hit a sweet spot in its design and presentation. This was a game that was meant to be played and my friends and I had a blast with it. Sure, one can quibble about its lack of a robust character creation system, but that mostly didn't matter, because the whole point of this game was taking on the roles of one of Marvel's immense pantheon of heroes.
That's what made the Gamer's Handbook of the Marvel Universe, released in four 256-page volumes over the course of 1988, so appealing. Modeled on the 15-volume Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe series from Marvel Comics, TSR's Handbook provided game statistics for nearly every Marvel character ever to appear in its comics, as well as information on their history and even roleplaying notes. If you were playing Marvel Super Heroes, this was pretty much a must-have product, especially if, like me, your favorite heroes and villains had never appeared in other MSH products or in the pages of Jeff Grubb's excellent "The Marvel-Phile" series.
Much like the Monstrous Compendium for AD&D Second Edition, the Handbook's pages were five-hole punched so that they could be organized into a binder. Unlike the MC, I don't believe TSR ever produced officially-branded binders for this purpose, but my memory is hazy. Interestingly, Who's Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe, released between 1985 and 1987 in obvious imitation of Marvel's earlier effort, was released in a similar loose-leaf format. I have no idea whether TSR was, in turn, borrowing a page from DC or if it was simply something the company had, for whatever reason, hit upon as a useful format for releasing its products at the time.
"Robust" Character generation isn't all its cracked up to be really. You can still randomly roll a character, or Model a character. Modelling means you compare what level you want for your character to the various Marvel characters, with GM's approval of course. What's more 'robust' than that? You get what you want within reason, you just don't get to play silly
ReplyDeletehow do I break the rules for this power tricks at least not without talking to the GM. (You can get power stunts, which is different.)
It is still rightfully regarded as one of the best regarded superhero RPGs ever designed. There is more than one retro-clones based on it and both ICONS and the currently Kickstarter Invincible RPG have their roots in MSH.
ReplyDeletecheck this out: great resource for MSH online
ReplyDeletehttp://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/
Wow, that's a great site! Thanks for posting the link.
Delete" Sure, one can quibble about its lack of a robust character creation system, but that mostly didn't matter, because the whole point of this game was taking on the roles of one of Marvel's immense pantheon of heroes."
ReplyDeleteHa! I was particularly annoyed that the Battle Book (or campaign book, more likely. Don't remember) referred to character creation at all, having assumed entirely that the infallibility of Marvel would manufacture the pre-existent roles. Whereas I occasionally bristled at pre-generated characters as "disposable" (that is, until I forgot that my beloved cleric/MU/whatever with the fascinating history and memorable adventures got his start as a pregenerated NPC from a module or something), I absolutely loathed the idea of creating a non-canonical character. Aside from generic security teams or onlookers when needed, I never once even tried to "roll up" what would have inevitably been just a knockoff of Wolverine or whomever.
Before the stats came out in the later manuals and articles, I would just take the power roster suggestions (or for "non-super" heroes from the comics, like Gwen Stacy - the awesome NPC generator that was included) and then compare a published guy to a his similar counter unpublished counterpart (say, Captain America to get an idea of what Captain Britain's scores should be in the ballpark of, or Thing and Hulk, even though I'm pretty sure I had both their stats early on.)
And because we primarily played Marvel in the "campaign setting" of our homebrew Ed Garner's UCWF wrestling arena. Other than Thing and She-Hulk, there were a whole bunch of PCs and NPCs we needed to "roll up" exactly in this way: Marvel Boy, Demolition Man, Ramrod, Enigmo, Anabolic, etc. Because the "weight classes" weren't based on a wrestler's actual body weight, but on how much he/she could overhead press, some of the stats could be classified arithmetically, and then the others could be used to compare to other known characters.
It was really fun because the way we played it, the characters also played roles (except for Thing and She-Hulk and world-famous heroes like that). For example a supervillain who was trying to go legit by working as a wrestler would nonetheless often have to play a heel (even if backstage he was friends with "good guys") because the crowd would hate him by reputation. Other times, relatively unknown wrestlers who happened to have superpowers (or took supersoldier steroids) portrayed "good guys" or "bad guys" depending on what management (or the crowd) wanted them to be.
In any case the power of Marvel Superheroes, for me, was the power of pre-gen.
Jeff Grubb has told a few tales about the whole character creation bit for FASERIP. Seems about right.
ReplyDeleteThe late, great Jim Shooter (who was EiC at Marvel at the time) told a few tales about meeting with the TSR folks; he didn't involve himself particularly in the license, but he did make note of the fact that he liked how Gary and the people he met with actually played the games they made and weren't ashamed of it like so many people in the toy/comic industries were at the publishing, business development, and marketing levels.
That's really interesting.
DeleteIt may be worth noting Jim Shooter was a comics fan who started writing professionally for comics when he was 14. I imagine he would not have had much use for someone who dismisses the material as "kids stuff"
DeleteI’d thought in the past that there were some interesting parallels between Gygax at TSR and Shooter at Marvel — although in another way Gygax was also the “Stan Lee” figure of TSR.
DeleteAt launch, MSH should've been an easy way to get comicbook fans, that weren't already playing D&D, to try RPGing. (the same way putting rangers, dwarves, elves and hobbits into D&D attracted Tolkien fans to gaming)
ReplyDeleteSo I thought MSH's stat designations of Amazing, Monstrous, Remarkable, etc were a brilliant way to make gaming more understandable to non-gamers.
Did MSH invent that approach?
Such a home run as a game. From before characters were "builds", and random rolls were best. Enforced imagination and allowed for far more interesting and diverse characters than a build system would allow.
ReplyDeleteChampions, Superworld, Heroes, all fine...by FASERIP MSHRPG is where it is at. To this day I will still from time to time whip out Ultimate Powers and randomly generate a hero and villain to use as characters for stories to tell.
...random character creation was always fantastic fun for our groups, brainstorming thematic consistency out of whatever madcap mashup emerged from the rolls, especially after we had the advanced rules + ultimate powers + ultimate addenda at our disposal...
ReplyDeleteI am the biggest Marver RPG fan, and I still play it to this day. These books were the most important and used RPG supplements I owned.
ReplyDeleteCharacter creation, especially with the ultimate powers book, was fantastic. It’s like a writing prompt. Roll up a bunch of mismatched powers and come up with a way they were related. Never did any of my players come into character creation with an idea, the dice decided. Everyone of those random heroes were their favorite RPG characters once they were made.
I tried to get people to play the actual Marvel heroes, but none of them wanted to. I never understood that. My only disappointment of being the forever GM is that I never got to play as a Marvel character (not counting all of the NPCs I have run).
That is so opposite my experience! Aside from the VERY occasional DC-port crossover (Batman. Always Batman), aside from my first readthrough of the books, I never once generated a thing. The rare partial generations (Batman, after all, was just Daredevil with gadgets and no superblindness.)
DeleteNot to slight MSH but Jeff Dee’s “Villains & Vigilantes” predates MSH and has random superhero creation.
ReplyDeleteAny recommendations for the published MSHRPG modules? Soon I'll unearth my old copy of the original basic boxed edition of MSHRPG and might want to try out play with one of the modules hosted on the Classic Marvel Forever website that blackstone advertised above. I think it might be a nice intro to RPGs for a couple of people I know; however, I'm more into SF then superheroes and I'm not confident I would come up with a good adventure.
ReplyDeleteThere is a wonderful, rules lite, fast play superhero RPG called TinyD6 supers. As someone who played four different editions of Champions/Hero system I am a huge SuperRPG fan and am blown away by how well that system captures the feel of the genre without getting caught up in detail.
ReplyDelete